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Yeah this is where I'm at too, there is no reason these device makers should be locking us out of doing what we want with our phones. Their app store can exist along side other install options and compete on usability instead of monopoly.
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That just sounds like the system needs a separate "Admin" mode to do things like that. Your mom can take the risk of messing with that herself (which can be very educational!), or leave that for you or someone else to handle. But that would let her make a more informed choice, even without technical ability.
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That's the same argument people used to praise Microsoft for forcing mandatory updates.
Every year they force untested updates breaking the OS or even bricking the hardware.
And Windows is still vulnerable despite the updates.This is weird in so many ways I have a hard time keeping track.
I mean, no, it's not the same argument. One thing is about how when you have billions of handheld devices largely meant to function as out-of-the-box platforms for specific uses for non-tech savvy users it helps to have them locked out of the box to minimize software issues and maintenance. The other is about peace of mind and automated upkeep during downtime.
But at the same time... yeah, automated updates (which is not the same as mandatory updates) are a good thing. Especially for mainstream home computers that don't have a sysadmin looking after them from a centralized location and have their upkeep down to whatever an individual user decides to do and when. There's a reason a number of Linux distros meant for home devices also install updates in the background. It's a good idea for gaming devices and home computers. The thing that used to piss people off about MS updates is that they used to interrupt people's work to make them happen, which was exceedingly stupid.
None of which has anything to do with Windows or Microsoft pushing bad updates. Bad updates are bad and they aren't any better for not being automated. Nobody cares if you updated yourself or the OS did it for you. If the system pushes a bad patch that bricks your system that's really bad. That should never happen. For the record, it has happened to me way more often on Linux, but your mileage may vary.
And nooone of that has anything to do with vulnerabilities persisting. All systems have vulnerabilities. It's about striking the right balance between how bad those are and how practical it is to close them up. You keep things as secure as you can while keeping them usable, based on what they are being used for.
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This does feel like a bit of a double-standard to me. I’ve hated how Microsoft and Apple have introduced app stores on Windows and macOS and try to push people to only install from there instead of directly from the developer. And yet on Linux the advice seems to be never ever download directly from the developer; you should only download from the package repository provided by your OS (which sure feels like an App Store). And that package probably wasn’t even provided by the developer or the OS but some random volunteer that you just assume has good intentions.
My package manager installs all of the dependencies the program needs and takes care of updates, too. If I install directly from the developer, I have to do all that myself. Fuck that.
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You're right that there's value in having a software repository with "vetted" apps in it. And at the same time, there's a difference between "here's stuff we've done some kind of due diligence on" and "you aren't allowed to install anything we haven't okayed." That's what Apple and now Google are doing.
(I also think there's value in having a word like "sideload" to describe the action of installing software not in a repository. It's just that it's tied up now in this paternal attitude from the big companies)
Yep. No disagreement from me on any of that.
At most I'd argue that I don't mind that Apple does that as long as someone else does not. If Apple wants to have a closed system that's all good, but from the perspective of regulation and anti-trust you can't have EVERY platform be closed. You need at least one viable open competitor to prevent the owners of the hardware from owning all the software by definition. It's just like I don't have a problem with Nintendo needing to certify all the games on the Switch as long as there is a Steam Deck, or Sony certifying PS5 games as long as you can run games on a PC.
But if all the software on the planet had to be on either the PS5 store or the Nintendo eShop I would absolutely have a problem with those being locked down. That's what this shift means for the mobile market.
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If you used Linux before the repos were fully developed then you understand why they were created.
Who else remembers "dependency hell?"
Corpos just took the same idea and twisted it into something else.
Dependency hell was what drove me back to Windows. Fortunately, I didn't stay there and I learned how to apt-get.
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I think this is referring to recent news that google is trying to ban non-google-play installs (aka: sideloading)
wrote last edited by [email protected]Well that's different. Blocking side loading is insane. But that post is missing context unless you're following that closely.
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My feed is curated by the Illuminati
Only in the US, I guess. In my country and in Europe this will not fly...
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What exactly are you trying to argue here?
You say automated updates good, mandatory updates maybe not?
But there's no difference on Windows, that's the point. You, as a user, get no choice.You will get broken updates and unwanted features whenever they decide, because it's ultimately about the same thing with both MS and Android: taking away your control of your devices.
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Only in the US, I guess. In my country and in Europe this will not fly...
wrote last edited by [email protected]We can hope…
::: spoiler edit
To clarify, I hope it will not fly outside the US, but looking at the world around I feel this is not very realistic hope
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This does feel like a bit of a double-standard to me. I’ve hated how Microsoft and Apple have introduced app stores on Windows and macOS and try to push people to only install from there instead of directly from the developer. And yet on Linux the advice seems to be never ever download directly from the developer; you should only download from the package repository provided by your OS (which sure feels like an App Store). And that package probably wasn’t even provided by the developer or the OS but some random volunteer that you just assume has good intentions.
Nothing ever comes “directly from the developer”, and any developer that attempts to do so ends up in a level of hell not yet documented. There are way too many distros, way too many architectures, way too many moving targets, that also includes iOS, macOS and Windows. No single developer can hit them all. There's no standard packaging either. So, usually they only package for one or a handful of popular distros, or one container format. But that's the magic of FOSS. Anyone can take the source code and repackage it, redistribute it and make it available for others. This is assumed to be a strength and not a weakness of FOSS and Linux. Thus, the distros create their own official repositories where they make themselves responsible that everything will mostly work nicely with one another.
The difference is that package repositories are safe havens of compatibility. While appStores are enforced cages that cannot be escaped. If a package repository tries to fuck up with users, hurt the FOSS space (looking at you Ubuntu Snaps), or gets compromised by a bad actor; you just move to another repository, another distro, a different format, another safe space. If Android or Apple decides to enshittify and fuck over customers, users, get compromised or do something to hurt developers, you are fuck out of luck. This difference matters.
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This does feel like a bit of a double-standard to me. I’ve hated how Microsoft and Apple have introduced app stores on Windows and macOS and try to push people to only install from there instead of directly from the developer. And yet on Linux the advice seems to be never ever download directly from the developer; you should only download from the package repository provided by your OS (which sure feels like an App Store). And that package probably wasn’t even provided by the developer or the OS but some random volunteer that you just assume has good intentions.
It may feel like a double standard but it's not
Most Linux stores are created and maintained by volunteers
Those stores aren't limiting software they host based on what makes them the most money. Money isn't involved.at all
Linux won't stop you from adding more stores
Linix won't stop you from manually adding any other software, either as a package or even manually building it from scratch
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You know, it's true - I have never heard a Linux user refer to something as sideloading, even though Linux is the platform that originated official software repositories.
The key thing to understand is that there's a big fucking difference between a "repository" and an "app store." One is designed for the convenience of users; the other is designed to exploit them.
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wrote last edited by [email protected]
Why do you hate property rights?
Because that's what your argument actually boils down to: utter and complete contempt for users' property rights. You're advocating for subjugating them to corporations as technofeudal serfs.
You know this to be true.
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Why do you hate property rights?
Because that's what your argument actually boils down to: utter and complete contempt for users' property rights. You're advocating for subjugating them to corporations as technofeudal serfs.
You know this to be true.
You've made up some things there. My concern is that the OP is a poor argument for the point it's trying to make. Not sure where you invented the rest of that bullshit from.
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I didn't make up a damn thing. You clearly and obviously hate property rights. That's the only reason you could possibly justify trying to take them away from people. Just admit it.
Claiming that corporations -- not governments, corporations, which is why your catalytic converter analogy was bullshit BTW -- need to self-servingly restrict people in the name of "protecting" them is fucking dishonest and you know it.
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I didn't make up a damn thing. You clearly and obviously hate property rights. That's the only reason you could possibly justify trying to take them away from people. Just admit it.
Claiming that corporations -- not governments, corporations, which is why your catalytic converter analogy was bullshit BTW -- need to self-servingly restrict people in the name of "protecting" them is fucking dishonest and you know it.
Cool, I never claimed anything even close to what you just vomited out. Here's what I did say, though:
The problem I take is with the argument the OP presents, because it incorrectly suggests that the average user has (or should have) an expert-level knowledge of their devices. Safety rails exist for a reason. Yes, they're going too far; but no, removing them outright would not be the better solution.
That's all I was claiming, my guy. Go find your "gotcha" moment somewhere else, because it ain't here.
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wrote last edited by [email protected]
What's being discussed here isn't "safety rails," though. Why are you lying?
Android already had "safety rails," which is why installing from sources other than the Play Store was called "sideloading" and not just "loading." What's happening now is that Google is turning those barriers against the users and building a cage to imprison them instead.
People need to understand how fucking despicable and beyond the pale this shit actually is, yet you're making excuses for it instead. What the fuck.
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What's being discussed here isn't "safety rails," though. Why are you lying?
Android already had "safety rails," which is why installing from sources other than the Play Store was called "sideloading" and not just "loading." What's happening now is that Google is turning those barriers against the users and building a cage to imprison them instead.
People need to understand how fucking despicable and beyond the pale this shit actually is, yet you're making excuses for it instead. What the fuck.
Yes, you've identified that there are multiple rails. Arguably, too many. It's almost like I pointed that out already.
Yes, they're going too far
Are you illiterate or just trolling?
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wrote last edited by [email protected]
I think that, with the current state of OSes like Windows and Android, there should be some minimal amount of friction to enabling installation of non-vetted apps. Maybe some switch that can't be enabled accidentally, or without understanding that there's risk involved (or at least a switch that can be disabled and password protected) for the sake of children or the elderly.
On the other hand, though, an OS should be built with enough security and sandboxing that no single application can brick your entire device without at least tapping through and giving it a ton of permissions; which means that the only remaining risk to the end user would be access to disinformation or other harmful content, or the risk of personal information exfiltration (i.e. phishing). At that point, a simple block list (or even just an allow list) maintained by a trusted guardian or third party would be sufficient to keep children or the elderly from harmful content, and whoops we've just invented the internet again.
I am once again begging for Boot2Gecko to become a thing.
