US to withdraw from NATO under Republican bill
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Not really. European NATO countries are currently strong enough to repel a Russian attack if we so wish. Taking into account how strong the Russia is at the moment. It will be stronger in the future, but we are easily able to increase our strength more than the Russia can.
And if USA withdraws from NATO, then the rest of EU, not only Finland, Baltics, Sweden, and Poland will be forced to take defence seriously. This will make NATO more like it was supposed to be, and it will no longer be used for offensive wars.
But... USA withdrawing from NATO would of course have negative sides:
- a war with the Russia would not end in two days with a decisive victory for us as it would with USA in, but would drag on for weeks at least, likely years. And thousands or tens of thousands would die.
- USA's allies in Asia would not dare to trust USA anymore and would turn towards China for coöperation, regardless of China's imperialism. This would make China stronger, which would be bad for Europe.
But still: The EU is the biggest economy on this planet. We are absolutely able to win a war against a country with an economy only as big as one of our 27 member states. We just need to bother to do so. Which means we'll need to change our mindset. Heh.
Right now nearly all aid to Ukraine comes from Europe and Russia is not able to win that war. At least not easily. That is with Russia in a war economy, whereas Europe half asses deliveries for the most part and obviously there are over a million professional European soldiers with some really good kit around as well.
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And then Russia can do whatever the fuck they want. Which is what daddy Trump wants.
Russia could not even prevent Assad from falling to some militia with some training from Turkey, while Iran was also helping. What do you believe is going to happen, if they would try to fight another professional military? They are not even winning in Ukraine, which gets some support from Europe, while Russia has a full on war economy.
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Not really. European NATO countries are currently strong enough to repel a Russian attack if we so wish. Taking into account how strong the Russia is at the moment. It will be stronger in the future, but we are easily able to increase our strength more than the Russia can.
And if USA withdraws from NATO, then the rest of EU, not only Finland, Baltics, Sweden, and Poland will be forced to take defence seriously. This will make NATO more like it was supposed to be, and it will no longer be used for offensive wars.
But... USA withdrawing from NATO would of course have negative sides:
- a war with the Russia would not end in two days with a decisive victory for us as it would with USA in, but would drag on for weeks at least, likely years. And thousands or tens of thousands would die.
- USA's allies in Asia would not dare to trust USA anymore and would turn towards China for coöperation, regardless of China's imperialism. This would make China stronger, which would be bad for Europe.
But still: The EU is the biggest economy on this planet. We are absolutely able to win a war against a country with an economy only as big as one of our 27 member states. We just need to bother to do so. Which means we'll need to change our mindset. Heh.
I'm fairly sure Ukraine is almost stronger than EU combined right now. We would NOT speedrun Russia, and Russia is a death cult that would have hundreds if not millions of casualties on their side, even if we did (saying this as a Serbian, and we are normally very proud of our combat abilities for some reason).
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Yeah and what the fuck we gonna do without Raytheon/LockMart/Boeing weaponry etc? Munition?
That's the point, figure out a way to stop relying on them. It'd have been better if it weren't necessary to have a wake-up call like this, but if that's what it takes to achieve that result, I'm okay with it
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Step 1: Get help from NATO in the middle the east.
Step 2: Once NATO needs your help withdraw.
Step 3: PROFIT.Step 3: Become irrevelant, getting replaced by otherwise mediocre countries. That's one way to bring world peace, I guess.
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That's the point, figure out a way to stop relying on them. It'd have been better if it weren't necessary to have a wake-up call like this, but if that's what it takes to achieve that result, I'm okay with it
Yeah but no need to withdraw now, that's like I agreed to teach you to swim but go head first in deep waters with no safeguard whatsoever
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Hey, you know how much money they spend on having this bases? Some regions depend on it.
On the other hand... I think Trump and his mad posse wouldn't risc being such bigmouths without their Bases in Turkey or Ramstein.
Also their level of megalomanic moronity makes me fear that when the USA leaves Nato it would start attacking the rest of the world. Canada and Mexico first. Then they would find "justifications" to raid through middle america and "bring idiocrazy" to south america. Reinstating slavery for everyone that ain't "a good godfearing white patriot"... Because... the white race is superiour and needs Lebensraum.... Oh god, I've heard that shit all over in history class when I grew up in Germany in the 1970ies...
Please, anyone stop them now!!!
We should wait for them to start a war with someone like Canada, and THEN ambush them. But to do that, Russia needs to be overrun.
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they’re doing it very knowingly… they wrote an entire nearly 1000 page fucking document detailing exactly what they’re doing in excruciating detail.
the fascists == idiots trope needs to go bc that’s exactly what makes them dangerous. lots of these fuckers are quite intelligent and conniving. you should be weary.
The followers of fascist movements are alsolute morons. The leaders are ruthless and capable opportunists.
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So we dont buy US military kit. It's got kill switches and hard to keep running without their support. It's increasing looking like they aren't aligned with the free world.
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I can see trump believing something so stupid as that, and putin might saber rattle about it, but the majority of the world, and china/india especially in this situation, probably would not go along with it. Europe still has functioning nuclear capabilities. Putin does not want nukes hitting his country, full stop. China does not want a nuclear situation kicking off with their neighbor to the north, and knows that the US under trump would likely turn on them despite a war ruining both countries. India no more wants china controlling the waters to their east than the countries immediately around those waters do, and would likely cause issues, which china also doesn't want. As we've seen in the modern times with ukraine and some of the middle east conflicts and the india/pakistan border, nuclear powers tiptoe around anything that resembles direct conflict. The recent dogfight over the border was a pretty good idea of how reserved even 'open' conflict is.
So putin is likely not going to do anything more than a symbolic grunt at his western border, and china will just slowly weather down taiwan if the u.s. is withdrawing its influence. The idea of reunification isn't THAT taboo in taiwan, and the candidates for it gather a decent chunk of votes. If the u.s. starts acting like a bitch around the world (oh, gee, just look at what's happening right now), the sentiment towards it and china could easily see a rapid shift.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Many valid points, but having nukes generally only prevents getting nuked, not attacks by other means. At least as long as either party still has something to lose.
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From a Turkish perspective, it's fucking ridiculous for Trump to first convince us to increase the defense budget, then withdraw from the alliance completely. The fuck is his goal?
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That is the problem with democracies - they have no active protection of their own because it would be undemocratic on principle.
They do have active protection; education. Under attack since the dawn of time.
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I'm not saying Donald is a russian asset... But what more could daddy vladdy wish for?
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All of Europe will be Russia.
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They do have active protection; education. Under attack since the dawn of time.
Education... educated people think about things. Above all, when is the best time to have a child in terms of financial situation etc. Political and world events etc. can also be taken into consideration. .
Meanwhile, the uneducated have the 4-5 child.
The educated now have the problem of age and have waited too long/thought about the fact that having a child is no longer an option. -
Just when I warmed up to the idea that NATO was a necessary evil to counter Putin's worse evil.
I have good news, NATO still has a pretty powerful military without the US being involved and the addition of Finland/Sweden makes Europes continental defense much more capable. NATO has pretty dispersed manufacturing capabilities, so it won't even take that long to replace most American systems. The only long/medium term problem is the F-35, and that's less of a problem than people think. Americans MIC won't turn off its money makers, and much of the knowledge to build the plane is already dispersed among NATO members.
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I like this! It's a good thing for the EU to decouple from the US. The EU's military budget is definitely good enough, just very badly managed. This will push the EU to get its shit together and achieve proper autonomy. Only then it'll be able to enter international agreements on equal footing with other superpowers and not have it be a serfdom relationship in exchange for protection
This is disingenuous at best, Russian bot most likely
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We should wait for them to start a war with someone like Canada, and THEN ambush them. But to do that, Russia needs to be overrun.
I think preventing any unnecessary bloodshed should be first priority.
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From a Turkish perspective, it's fucking ridiculous for Trump to first convince us to increase the defense budget, then withdraw from the alliance completely. The fuck is his goal?
Spending more on defense is the republican thing it matters to them more than anything else so it does not matter at all if we even need it.
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All of Europe will be Russia.
The Russia that can't take Ukraine? Keep dreaming.
