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  3. Which areas of Linux would benefit most from further standardization?

Which areas of Linux would benefit most from further standardization?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Linux
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  • F [email protected]

    I don't use any of these, but I'm curious. Could you please write some examples?

    E This user is from outside of this forum
    E This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote on last edited by
    #53

    It mostly affects people working with ”fun” enterprise hardware or special purpose things.

    But to take one example, proprietary drivers for high performance network cards, most likely from Nvidia.

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    • O [email protected]

      The diversity of Linux distributions is one of its strengths, but it can also be challenging for app and game development. Where do we need more standards? For example, package management, graphics APIs, or other aspects of the ecosystem? Would such increased standards encourage broader adoption of the Linux ecosystem by developers?

      C This user is from outside of this forum
      C This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote on last edited by
      #54
      1. find something Lennart built. Eg. systemd
      2. remove that
      3. go to 1
      E L S hobbsc@lemmy.sdf.orgH 4 Replies Last reply
      0
      • C [email protected]
        1. find something Lennart built. Eg. systemd
        2. remove that
        3. go to 1
        E This user is from outside of this forum
        E This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote on last edited by
        #55

        Would you mind providing some reasoning so this doesn't come off as unsubstantiated badmouthing?

        M 1 Reply Last reply
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        • cysioland@lemmygrad.mlC [email protected]

          Actual native package management and package distribution

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          [email protected]
          wrote on last edited by
          #56

          cpio/tar for the one, mqtt/http/smtp/scp/dcc/tftp/uucp/dns for the other

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          • K [email protected]

            ARM support. Every SoC is a new horror.

            Armbian does great work, but if you want another distro you’re gonna have to go on a lil adventure.

            E This user is from outside of this forum
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            [email protected]
            wrote on last edited by
            #57

            Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on an open standard like RISC-V instead of ARM?

            K 1 Reply Last reply
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            • E [email protected]

              Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on an open standard like RISC-V instead of ARM?

              K This user is from outside of this forum
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              wrote on last edited by
              #58

              Not really. There are barely any chips out there.

              Oct 2021: 200 billion ARM chips

              Nov 2023: 1 billion RISC-V chips, hoping to hit 16 billion by 2030

              Nov 2024: 300 billion ARM chips

              ? 1 Reply Last reply
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              • M [email protected]

                interoperability > homogeneity

                ferk@lemmy.mlF This user is from outside of this forum
                ferk@lemmy.mlF This user is from outside of this forum
                [email protected]
                wrote on last edited by
                #59

                interoperability == API homogeneity

                standardization != monopolization

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                • C [email protected]
                  1. find something Lennart built. Eg. systemd
                  2. remove that
                  3. go to 1
                  L This user is from outside of this forum
                  L This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #60

                  Systemd is fine. This sounds like an old sysadmin who refuses to learn because "new thing bad" and zero logic to back it up.

                  C 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • F [email protected]

                    I've never understood putting arbitrary limits on a worker's laptop. I had always been seeking for ways to hijack them. Once I ended up using a VM,
                    without limit...

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                    [email protected]
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #61

                    Because people are stupid. One of my coworkers (older guy) tends to click on things without thinking. He's been through multiple cyber security training courses, and has even been written up for opening multiple obvious phishing emails.

                    People like that are why company-owned laptops are locked down with group policy and other security measures.

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                    • C [email protected]
                      1. find something Lennart built. Eg. systemd
                      2. remove that
                      3. go to 1
                      S This user is from outside of this forum
                      S This user is from outside of this forum
                      [email protected]
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #62

                      Yes, I find that dude to be very disagreeable. He's like everything that haters claim Linus Torvalds is - but manifested IRL.

                      ? 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • F [email protected]

                        I've never understood putting arbitrary limits on a worker's laptop. I had always been seeking for ways to hijack them. Once I ended up using a VM,
                        without limit...

                        S This user is from outside of this forum
                        S This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #63

                        Rule #1 never trust your users

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                        • E [email protected]

                          Would you mind providing some reasoning so this doesn't come off as unsubstantiated badmouthing?

                          M This user is from outside of this forum
                          M This user is from outside of this forum
                          [email protected]
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #64

                          My experience with systemd has been the opposite. Thanks to systemd, many core tools have consistent names and CLI behaviors.

                          Before systemd I used sysVinit, upstart and various other tools.

                          I’m glad systemd alternatives exist as part of a diverse Linux ecosystem but I haven’t had a compelling reason to not use systemd.

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                          • S [email protected]

                            One that Linux should've had 30 years ago is a standard, fully-featured dynamic library system. Its shared libraries are more akin to static libraries, just linked at runtime by ld.so instead of ld. That means that executables are tied to particular versions of shared libraries, and all of them must be present for the executable to load, leading to the dependecy hell that package managers were developed, in part, to address. The dynamically-loaded libraries that exist are generally non-standard plug-in systems.

                            A proper dynamic library system (like in Darwin) would allow libraries to declare what API level they're backwards-compatible with, so new versions don't necessarily break old executables. (It would ensure ABI compatibility, of course.) It would also allow processes to start running even if libraries declared by the program as optional weren't present, allowing programs to drop certain features gracefully, so we wouldn't need different executable versions of the same programs with different library support compiled in. If it were standard, compilers could more easily provide integrated language support for the system, too.

                            Dependency hell was one of the main obstacles to packaging Linux applications for years, until Flatpak, Snap, etc. came along to brute-force away the issue by just piling everything the application needs into a giant blob.

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                            wrote on last edited by
                            #65

                            I find the Darwin approach to dynamic linking too restrictive. Sometimes there needs to be a new release which is not backwards compatible or you end up with Windows weirdness. It is also too restrictive on volunteer developers giving their time to open source.

                            At the same time, containerization where we through every library - and the kitchen sink - at an executable to get it to run does not seem like progress to me. It's like the meme where the dude is standing on a huge horizontal pile of ladders to look over a small wall.

                            At the moment you can choose to use a distro which follows a particular approach to this problem; one which enthuses its developers, giving some guarantee of long term support. This free market of distros that we have at the moment is ideal in my opinion.

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                            • ikidd@lemmy.worldI [email protected]

                              Domain authentication and group policy analogs.

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                              wrote on last edited by
                              #66

                              An immutable distro would be ideal for this kind of thing. ChromeOS (an immutable distro example) can be centrally managed, but the caveat with ChromeOS in particular is that it's management can only go through Google via their enterprise Google Workspace suite.

                              But as a concept, this shows that it's doable.

                              meekah@lemmy.worldM 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • O [email protected]

                                The diversity of Linux distributions is one of its strengths, but it can also be challenging for app and game development. Where do we need more standards? For example, package management, graphics APIs, or other aspects of the ecosystem? Would such increased standards encourage broader adoption of the Linux ecosystem by developers?

                                hiddenlayer555@lemmy.mlH This user is from outside of this forum
                                hiddenlayer555@lemmy.mlH This user is from outside of this forum
                                [email protected]
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #67

                                Where app data is stored.

                                ~/.local

                                ~/.config

                                ~/.var

                                ~/.appname

                                Pick one and stop cluttering my home directory

                                itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zoneI F arscynic@beehaw.orgA tlaloc_temporal@lemmy.caT ? 5 Replies Last reply
                                0
                                • O [email protected]

                                  The diversity of Linux distributions is one of its strengths, but it can also be challenging for app and game development. Where do we need more standards? For example, package management, graphics APIs, or other aspects of the ecosystem? Would such increased standards encourage broader adoption of the Linux ecosystem by developers?

                                  P This user is from outside of this forum
                                  P This user is from outside of this forum
                                  [email protected]
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #68

                                  Standardizing package management? Imagine everyone being stuck with .rpm

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                                  • ikidd@lemmy.worldI [email protected]

                                    Domain authentication and group policy analogs.

                                    pupbiru@aussie.zoneP This user is from outside of this forum
                                    pupbiru@aussie.zoneP This user is from outside of this forum
                                    [email protected]
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #69

                                    i’ve never understood why there’s not a good option for using one of the plethora of server management tools with prebuilt helpers for workstations to mimic group policy

                                    like the tools we have on linux to handle this are far, far more powerful

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                                    • hiddenlayer555@lemmy.mlH [email protected]

                                      Where app data is stored.

                                      ~/.local

                                      ~/.config

                                      ~/.var

                                      ~/.appname

                                      Pick one and stop cluttering my home directory

                                      itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zoneI This user is from outside of this forum
                                      itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zoneI This user is from outside of this forum
                                      [email protected]
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #70

                                      it's pretty bad. steam for example has both
                                      ~/.steam and
                                      ~/.local/share/Steam
                                      for some reason. I'm just happy I moved to an impermanent setup for my PC, so I don't need to worry something I temporarily install is going to clutter my home directory with garbage

                                      ? 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • hiddenlayer555@lemmy.mlH [email protected]

                                        Where app data is stored.

                                        ~/.local

                                        ~/.config

                                        ~/.var

                                        ~/.appname

                                        Pick one and stop cluttering my home directory

                                        F This user is from outside of this forum
                                        F This user is from outside of this forum
                                        [email protected]
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #71

                                        I have good news and bad news:

                                        A specification already exists. https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/

                                        M 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • L [email protected]

                                          An immutable distro would be ideal for this kind of thing. ChromeOS (an immutable distro example) can be centrally managed, but the caveat with ChromeOS in particular is that it's management can only go through Google via their enterprise Google Workspace suite.

                                          But as a concept, this shows that it's doable.

                                          meekah@lemmy.worldM This user is from outside of this forum
                                          meekah@lemmy.worldM This user is from outside of this forum
                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #72

                                          I don't think anyone was saying it's impossible, just that it needs standardization. I imagine windows is more appealing to companies when it is easier to find admins than if they were to use some specific linux system where only a few people are skilled to manage it.

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