I'm scared to post this anywhere because people will interpret it as me being misogynistic.
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I agree. It's kind of a tightrope these days. As a white, cis, hereto, middle-aged, male, I pretty much clock as the poster-child for privilege. I am palpably aware that crying loudly for any support might just come off as tasteless, or even insensitive in the wrong group.
Yet, a lot of our social ills these days look an awful lot like mental illness, which is poorly compensated for through evil, perpetrated by people that resemble this description. Zero social support means you just listen to Joe Rogan instead, while projecting trauma as hate.
This poster/meme might work better if it aimed for equality and that it doesn't exclude anyone. Or maybe if it had a quote from research or some person of note about the silent epidemic that is men's mental/social health issues.
Edit: some clarification.
I'm trying to argue that while I agree with the poster's message on its face, the delivery is problematic, if however subtly so.
The message on the poster aligns strongly with a privileged group ("men"). Therefore it's wise to use different or additional language to include/acknowledge less privileged groups, lest it be interpreted (or co-opted) as exclusive to that privileged group. It's hard to be succinct while doing this though.
To be clear, you'd see me side with movements like BLM over whitewashed nonsense like "all lives matter", any day of the week. I'm not suggesting we do away with targeted language on the basis of it being exclusionary. What I am saying is that one must be VERY careful to put things out there that can be utilized in an exclusionary way.
This poster/meme might work better if it aimed for equality and that it doesn’t exclude anyone.
Who does it exclude?
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That's why I'm a feminist. They understand everyone suffers under the patriarchy. Especially men who are forbidden to show emotion.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Under some older meaning of feminist sure. But 90% of the people who claim to be feminist these days think of it solely as giving women more privilege, and any discussion of men's issues is considered anti-feminist. Whatever meaning of equality that there used to be is all but lost.
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Under some older meaning of feminist sure. But 90% of the people who claim to be feminist these days think of it solely as giving women more privilege, and any discussion of men's issues is considered anti-feminist. Whatever meaning of equality that there used to be is all but lost.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]You'd get called a misogynist because you are a misogynist, Herr Feminists Believe in Female Supremacy That's Why I Vote AfD
Weird that a .de user would make it about being a poor little idea victim of feminism instead of mentioning that the blue heart is an AfD symbol, huh?
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This poster/meme might work better if it aimed for equality and that it doesn’t exclude anyone.
Who does it exclude?
Technically, everyone that doesn't identify as "men". But it's done in the abstract, negative space of the message by not saying it. Subtle, but without clarifying things, it's left open to this interpretation.
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Technically, everyone that doesn't identify as "men". But it's done in the abstract, negative space of the message by not saying it. Subtle, but without clarifying things, it's left open to this interpretation.
Do you also complain that gay pride and black history month aren't inclusive of everyone?
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You'd get called a misogynist because you are a misogynist, Herr Feminists Believe in Female Supremacy That's Why I Vote AfD
Weird that a .de user would make it about being a poor little idea victim of feminism instead of mentioning that the blue heart is an AfD symbol, huh?
wrote on last edited by [email protected]That comment was already made and most symbols mean multiple things. A German user and a Japanese user will have very different interpretations of a swastika. Whose Interpretation is correct, is depending on the situation. If you think the swastika on the tourist map in Japan stands for Nazism, you are wrong. If you think the swastika on a wall in Germany stands for good fortune, you are most probably wrong.
Edit: the dragontypewyvern user will go on this conversation to claim that I am the same person that he responded to. Heavily implying that I am supporting the afd. It is unfortunate that I called for the banning of the afd literally only 3 hours earlier. Obviously any other perspective than dragontypewyvern's is wrong.
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That comment was already made and most symbols mean multiple things. A German user and a Japanese user will have very different interpretations of a swastika. Whose Interpretation is correct, is depending on the situation. If you think the swastika on the tourist map in Japan stands for Nazism, you are wrong. If you think the swastika on a wall in Germany stands for good fortune, you are most probably wrong.
Edit: the dragontypewyvern user will go on this conversation to claim that I am the same person that he responded to. Heavily implying that I am supporting the afd. It is unfortunate that I called for the banning of the afd literally only 3 hours earlier. Obviously any other perspective than dragontypewyvern's is wrong.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]He's a German and literally calling the vast majority of feminists sexists, dip shit.
Also, we know "he" is "you" and you're too lazy to make your alts on different instances, which makes it easy to notice when you forget to swap your sockpuppets.
Kindly follow your leader, thanks.
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He's a German and literally calling the vast majority of feminists sexists, dip shit.
Also, we know "he" is "you" and you're too lazy to make your alts on different instances, which makes it easy to notice when you forget to swap your sockpuppets.
Kindly follow your leader, thanks.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Lol, I am not. And a lot of people who call themselves feminists are sexist. If you disagree with that, please name 1 thing that the general feminist movement is tackling in support of men. And the current patriarchy is harmful for men too. So there are things to tackle.
A German is not forced to use a symbol in an international setting in the same way, they might use it in the local setting.
Please don't use insults.
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Lol, I am not. And a lot of people who call themselves feminists are sexist. If you disagree with that, please name 1 thing that the general feminist movement is tackling in support of men. And the current patriarchy is harmful for men too. So there are things to tackle.
A German is not forced to use a symbol in an international setting in the same way, they might use it in the local setting.
Please don't use insults.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Oh, you're just independently using a specious argument to randomly claim modern Japanese people using a swastika is the same thing as the existence of historical examples and conflating it with this situation, while defending all his incorrect points.
An argument that, just by accident, ignores all the relevant context of his complaints.
Also, sure, here you go, the parts where feminism believes in gender equality:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
It's the whole fucking thing, incel.
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That's why I'm a feminist. They understand everyone suffers under the patriarchy. Especially men who are forbidden to show emotion.
I've very rarely see that from feminist circles. And even then it feels like we can only have the emotions they want us to have and not the ones we do have.
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Oh, you're just independently using a specious argument to randomly claim modern Japanese people using a swastika is the same thing as the existence of historical examples and conflating it with this situation, while defending all his incorrect points.
An argument that, just by accident, ignores all the relevant context of his complaints.
Also, sure, here you go, the parts where feminism believes in gender equality:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
It's the whole fucking thing, incel.
Yes we talk about symbols, Germans, especially AFD (they are Nazis) and different interpretations of these symbols, I think of that argument. I don't know how you are thinking but usually things mentioned in a conversation inspire me.
Ah yes. The best you can do is a vague motion.
Let's talk about the women's issues that I can name on the top of my head that the feminist movement tries to tackle (and I obviously support):
- wage gap
- not being taken seriously by e.g. doctors
- me too
- domestic violence
- the whole double standard of how emotions get framed, women's emotions get framed as childish and overreactive.
- creating awareness for the mental workload of planing an household which often women have to handle.
- abortion rights
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Yes we talk about symbols, Germans, especially AFD (they are Nazis) and different interpretations of these symbols, I think of that argument. I don't know how you are thinking but usually things mentioned in a conversation inspire me.
Ah yes. The best you can do is a vague motion.
Let's talk about the women's issues that I can name on the top of my head that the feminist movement tries to tackle (and I obviously support):
- wage gap
- not being taken seriously by e.g. doctors
- me too
- domestic violence
- the whole double standard of how emotions get framed, women's emotions get framed as childish and overreactive.
- creating awareness for the mental workload of planing an household which often women have to handle.
- abortion rights
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I agree. It's kind of a tightrope these days. As a white, cis, hereto, middle-aged, male, I pretty much clock as the poster-child for privilege. I am palpably aware that crying loudly for any support might just come off as tasteless, or even insensitive in the wrong group.
Yet, a lot of our social ills these days look an awful lot like mental illness, which is poorly compensated for through evil, perpetrated by people that resemble this description. Zero social support means you just listen to Joe Rogan instead, while projecting trauma as hate.
This poster/meme might work better if it aimed for equality and that it doesn't exclude anyone. Or maybe if it had a quote from research or some person of note about the silent epidemic that is men's mental/social health issues.
Edit: some clarification.
I'm trying to argue that while I agree with the poster's message on its face, the delivery is problematic, if however subtly so.
The message on the poster aligns strongly with a privileged group ("men"). Therefore it's wise to use different or additional language to include/acknowledge less privileged groups, lest it be interpreted (or co-opted) as exclusive to that privileged group. It's hard to be succinct while doing this though.
To be clear, you'd see me side with movements like BLM over whitewashed nonsense like "all lives matter", any day of the week. I'm not suggesting we do away with targeted language on the basis of it being exclusionary. What I am saying is that one must be VERY careful to put things out there that can be utilized in an exclusionary way.
So can the meto movement include male victims now?
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wrote on last edited by [email protected]
What is the lie? Let me guess, I don't fit in your boxes! How rude of me!
I love how you think we are the same person and imply that he is dog whistling for the AFD. While on my account from 3 hours earlier, I have this comment. https://discuss.tchncs.de/comment/18782896
I mean, are we the same person and not supporting the afd? Or are we not the same person and I don't support the afd?
Or Maybe... I am planning the long con! How sneaky! Because obviously you can't be wrong./s
You can't name 1 male issue that general feminist movement is actively trying to tackle but they are fighting for it. You seem to believe that a person can't support a movement and disagree with the behavior of the uninformed masses of the same movement. You seem to believe that a symbol can only mean 1 thing. And undoubtedly, you are obviously correct about everything. /s
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He's a German and literally calling the vast majority of feminists sexists, dip shit.
Also, we know "he" is "you" and you're too lazy to make your alts on different instances, which makes it easy to notice when you forget to swap your sockpuppets.
Kindly follow your leader, thanks.
Go be an edgelord on Reddit, we don't need your toxicity on Lemmy
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That's why I'm a feminist. They understand everyone suffers under the patriarchy. Especially men who are forbidden to show emotion.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]I don't like being associated with feminism for a single reason - not everyone agrees that both women and men suffer, and the blame is often shifted on men as "carriers of patriarchy". Besides, it is originally about women fighting for their rights, not men, and at any point in time women can note that it's for the women and about women, effectively shaking off the very men who promoted it - and to some degree, they will be correct.
We can do better by building a wider antisexist community. At the end of the day, all we want, as long as we act in good faith, is for everyone to be equal in their rights and opportunities. Women face sexism. Men face sexism. Some of it stems from patriarchy, some of it might come from other angles. We should come together not under the banner of feminism, not under the banner of masculism, but from the neutral ground if we ever hope to achieve a society that treats men and women as equals.
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I don't like being associated with feminism for a single reason - not everyone agrees that both women and men suffer, and the blame is often shifted on men as "carriers of patriarchy". Besides, it is originally about women fighting for their rights, not men, and at any point in time women can note that it's for the women and about women, effectively shaking off the very men who promoted it - and to some degree, they will be correct.
We can do better by building a wider antisexist community. At the end of the day, all we want, as long as we act in good faith, is for everyone to be equal in their rights and opportunities. Women face sexism. Men face sexism. Some of it stems from patriarchy, some of it might come from other angles. We should come together not under the banner of feminism, not under the banner of masculism, but from the neutral ground if we ever hope to achieve a society that treats men and women as equals.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]I don’t like being associated with anti-racism for a single reason - not everyone agrees that both black and white people suffer, and the blame is often shifted on white people as “carriers of systemic racism”. Besides, it is originally about black people fighting for their rights, not white people, and at any point in time black people can note that it’s for and about black people, effectively shaking off the very white people who promoted it - and to some degree, they will be correct.
We can do better by building a wider anti-racist community. At the end of the day, all we want, as long as we act in good faith, is for everyone to be equal in their rights and opportunities. Black people face racism. White people face racism. Some of it stems from systemic racism, some of it might come from other angles. We should come together not under the banner of Black Lives Matter, not under the banner of White Lives Matter, but from the neutral ground if we ever hope to achieve a society that treats #AllLives as equals.
This is how these comments come across to me.
There’s a power imbalance. Feminism is about bringing women up and redistributing the power.
Men should be able to talk about their issues. And I feel like they usually are. It’s not a problem.
It’s a problem when it’s done to hijack a conversation about women. Or when it’s done without awareness of the history of the power imbalance.
A lot of it isn’t to be taken personally and if it is, I think that says something about you. When I hear blame and anger towards privileged groups that I’m a part of, even if I suffer too, my gut reaction is never “but…”
I understand that these movements are reactions to the power, the history, and the general picture.
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I don’t like being associated with anti-racism for a single reason - not everyone agrees that both black and white people suffer, and the blame is often shifted on white people as “carriers of systemic racism”. Besides, it is originally about black people fighting for their rights, not white people, and at any point in time black people can note that it’s for and about black people, effectively shaking off the very white people who promoted it - and to some degree, they will be correct.
We can do better by building a wider anti-racist community. At the end of the day, all we want, as long as we act in good faith, is for everyone to be equal in their rights and opportunities. Black people face racism. White people face racism. Some of it stems from systemic racism, some of it might come from other angles. We should come together not under the banner of Black Lives Matter, not under the banner of White Lives Matter, but from the neutral ground if we ever hope to achieve a society that treats #AllLives as equals.
This is how these comments come across to me.
There’s a power imbalance. Feminism is about bringing women up and redistributing the power.
Men should be able to talk about their issues. And I feel like they usually are. It’s not a problem.
It’s a problem when it’s done to hijack a conversation about women. Or when it’s done without awareness of the history of the power imbalance.
A lot of it isn’t to be taken personally and if it is, I think that says something about you. When I hear blame and anger towards privileged groups that I’m a part of, even if I suffer too, my gut reaction is never “but…”
I understand that these movements are reactions to the power, the history, and the general picture.
Either you're a feminist or you're a misogynist, it's simple. -
Technically, everyone that doesn't identify as "men". But it's done in the abstract, negative space of the message by not saying it. Subtle, but without clarifying things, it's left open to this interpretation.
It isn't inclusive of everyone because it is about a specific group. I'm getting 'all lives matter' vibes from your comment.
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I've very rarely see that from feminist circles. And even then it feels like we can only have the emotions they want us to have and not the ones we do have.
I've had the same experience. Or if you do hear about it, it's reluctant and only in relation to how it affects women.
I'm fine with women having their own advocacy group, I don't think they're equipped to take on men too.
