Is Dune derivative?

[makeshiftreaper@lemmy.world]

I still reference this Penny Arcade strip 15 years later:

I mostly agree with the sentiment, people say something is derivative when they dislike it and it's an homage or a reference when they do

[_netnomad@fedia.io]

i've heard this called the Seinfeld effect, where Seinfeld was so influential on sitcoms that built off of it that it seems generic in hindsight

[hobbitfoot@thelemmy.club]

It depends. What do you find it derivative of?

[vindictivejudge@lemmy.world]

A lot of that article is a stretch. Some of these things are very basic storytelling elements or ancient character archetypes, and things like Empire vs Imperium are only similar in that they're empires in space; everything about how the empires actually work and their relationship with the main character is completely different. And space empires are older than Dune, but nobody accuses Dune's Emperor Shaddam of ripping off the Flash Gordon character of Emperor Ming.

Everything is derivative. Even the Epic of Gilgamesh probably borrows from some older oral tradition that was lost to time. While Dune influenced Star Wars, Flash Gordon and pulp fantasy were stronger influences. Dune, meanwhile, is essentially Lawrence of Arabia crossed with Hamlet.

[skullgrid@lemmy.world]

it's probably the reason I don't really are about Led Zepplin. I like hard rock and heavy metal all the way to tech death etc, but there's been so many generic hard rock bands that tried to ape led zep and/or rolling stones that I just don't put them on myself. (EDIT : I like them when they come on, but I won't worship it like Igorrr's ancient sun or Black Sabbath's self titled song)

Bands like Deep purple had some bells and whistles that made them stand out even if they got ripped off, but led zep was probably too close to setting/being the standard that they seem generic now.

[skullgrid@lemmy.world]

I can see where he's coming from, since it deals with the usual "chosen one, prophecies etc" stuff. What I liked about dune was that the visions aren't of the actual future, just possible ones. From what I've read on the plots to come, it gets more and more bizzarre, which probably won't feel very derivative.

I was disappointed with the directing in the sequel though.

[eponymousbosh@awful.systems]

I don't think you're entirely wrong, but to me, the difference is that a good homage can stand apart as its own Thing, whereas something that's derivative has to lean hard on the the tropes and trappings of the original in order to be anything at all.

Example: Stardew Valley vs a bunch of really mid/mediocre farming life sims it shares a genre with. SV is deliberately an homage to the Harvest Moon/Song of Seasons series and is upfront about it. But you can still pick up SV and have a great time with it, because it's a well-designed and complete game on its own, regardless of whether you even know HM/SoS exists. Whereas with the copycats, the big selling point is "it's just like [Harvest Moon/Stardew Valley]!" There's not enough actual substance for these games to stand on their own.

Obviously, "quality" is a subjective measurement and all, but I think that's where I would draw the line between an "homage" and "derivative."

[dragontypewyvern@midwest.social]

The book was derivative of sci-fi pulp at the time, which makes Herbert's claims about Star Wars pretty funny.

What's indisputable is that Dune itself has a pretty lasting effect on sci-fi that came after it. So, sure, it probably is, and you're also probably picking up on elements you've seen in other works that were derived from Dune in turn.

[turkalino@lemmy.yachts]

Seinfeld is Unfunny

[kryptoniancodemonkey@lemmy.world]

So, when talking about a film adaptation of a 60 year old book being derivative, remember that even though you are only experiencing it now, Dune has been around for a long time. It has inspired other creators, and their work has inspired yet more creators, and you have likely consumed much of these other inspired works before consuming the originator. The order you experience it in may make it seem derived by the other works you already enjoyed, but the opposite may in fact be true.

That being said, no work is created in a vacuum, and all works are derivative to some degree. Dune is no different. It is inspired by sci-fi pulp fiction and even fantasy works that came before it too.

Furthermore, the film is not an entirely faithful adaptation and brings its own interpretations, additions, and other alterations to the story. Those, likewise, are not always wholly novel ideas and share DNA with other works, novels and film, the creators enjoyed. They did plenty of unique things, particularly with the cinematography and aesthetics of the peoples and environments, but the story structure, superhuman abilities and political intrigue will still share a lot of commonalities with other works.

None of that makes Dune bad or lesser. There is nothing wrong with putting a new twist on a a tried and true formula or story element to make it your own.

[thisisamanwhoknowshowtogling@lemmy.dbzer0.com]

This is sort of like calling the Beatles derivative since everything they have has also been done better by other bands.

[nibodhika@lemmy.world]

For you to say it's derivative it needs to be a derivation of something else, I would like to ask you what exactly would that be?

Someone who grew up playing D&D and similar might watch Lord of the Rings and say it's derivative, without understanding that everything he knows is a derivation of it. There's a quote from Sir Terry Pratchett about it:

J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.

And Dune is exactly the same except about space empires.