Who is your favourite Anti Hero?
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Which one?
The Irredeemable Ant-Man is an interesting one - he's a low level, lazy SHIELD worker who steals an Ant-Man suit and uses it for selfish things. But you probably meant Scott Lang. I'd say Scott is more of a regular hero.
Ant Man must be the anti-est hero, doesn't get any anti-er than that
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An Anti Hero is basically a good guy who is kinda bad, or does good things for bad reasons. Deadpool's a classic example of an Anti Hero
Everyone in the Expanse. Naomi, Drummer, Fred Johnson, Bobbie Draper, Chrisjen Avasarala, Monica... Obviously, Amos, Peaches, Miller, and even Holden.
All of them do reprehensible things. Some did them and made up for it. Some still do them to win.
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Which one?
The Irredeemable Ant-Man is an interesting one - he's a low level, lazy SHIELD worker who steals an Ant-Man suit and uses it for selfish things. But you probably meant Scott Lang. I'd say Scott is more of a regular hero.
Which one?
Pym, I'd assume. I mean, the guy beat his wife, created Ultron, and is generally even more of an asshole than Stark...
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Everyone in the Expanse. Naomi, Drummer, Fred Johnson, Bobbie Draper, Chrisjen Avasarala, Monica... Obviously, Amos, Peaches, Miller, and even Holden.
All of them do reprehensible things. Some did them and made up for it. Some still do them to win.
Really? Holden damn close to the platonic ideal of a reluctant hero, with a strong moral compass.
He wobbles a bit later with all the PTSD, but generally always tries to do the right thing the best way he can.
Naomi and Bobbi too, Naomi did bad stuff in her back story, but she's much surer of herself and her sense of right and wrong due to that. Bobbi possibly a very mild anti-hero as she can lean a little blood knight, but not quite anti-hero in my view.
Drummer and Fred Johnson are much more morally grey, and start out as more antagonists than they end up being.
Avasarala is similar, but she's also a magnificent foul mouthed mother. She can get anti-hero status for sure.
Amos I think is more of a villain protagonist (dueteragonist?) than anti-hero.
Miller is anti-hero in the Shinji Ikari type.
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An Anti Hero is basically a good guy who is kinda bad, or does good things for bad reasons. Deadpool's a classic example of an Anti Hero
Bojack Horseman.
He’s such a terrible person but idk i love watching him and I root for him especially later seasons.
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Really? Holden damn close to the platonic ideal of a reluctant hero, with a strong moral compass.
He wobbles a bit later with all the PTSD, but generally always tries to do the right thing the best way he can.
Naomi and Bobbi too, Naomi did bad stuff in her back story, but she's much surer of herself and her sense of right and wrong due to that. Bobbi possibly a very mild anti-hero as she can lean a little blood knight, but not quite anti-hero in my view.
Drummer and Fred Johnson are much more morally grey, and start out as more antagonists than they end up being.
Avasarala is similar, but she's also a magnificent foul mouthed mother. She can get anti-hero status for sure.
Amos I think is more of a villain protagonist (dueteragonist?) than anti-hero.
Miller is anti-hero in the Shinji Ikari type.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Anti-hero: the protagonist whose methods, while effective, are not openly supported or celebrated because they fly in the face of "norms."
While I agree with your analysis on Holden. Reluctant hero, to be sure. He sure did screw over Earth and Mars on a fairly regular basis to make his points stick. He disobeyed orders and protected a Belter ship, which got him bounced from the Navy. He declined promotion so he could keep shagging the pilot of the Cant. He went alone on sending out the message that got them caught by the Donny... and that was all before shooting down a medical relief vessel, shearing off the drive section of a UNN vessel, targetlocking every ship in the Ganymede AO as he escorted the Weeping Somnambulist away. In-universe, Holden will do just about anything to advance his own ends. He's a privateer, his motives and methods transcend in-universe moralities, which we can only see because we know all the pieces. It's not 'til the Behemoth that he gains the patina of "saviour" — in contact with the dead, chosen by the protomolecule for direct communication, and having escaped death enough times to engender trust.
For most of the others — Amos (that guy --> just walk away), Naomi (clubbing Cyn ‐‐> waking the Presence), and Alex (we don't talk about Alex) for running with Holden; Fred (stealing missiles, selling Inaros out to the Inners --> "in my quarters, stop them"), Drummer (executioner --> "speak plainly"), and Bobbie (warrior, defector, ronin, mercenary --> fucking Valkyrie) for materially supporting Holden; in-universe, they would also be regarded as Anti-Heroes until they're not because of their arcs. Don't hate the playa. Hate the game.
Maybe "hero of the belt" = anti-hero precisely because it undercuts the frame of a "classic" hero. Much to be learned, then. Maybe I just want them to be anti-heroes because I have so much respect for these characters, their subversion of "norms" and willingness to address a greater good.
Nice touch with the comparison between Amos and Shinji Ikari. If this had been 2 years ago, I wouldn't have known. I see it now.
Also, Clarissa Mao?
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Anti-hero: the protagonist whose methods, while effective, are not openly supported or celebrated because they fly in the face of "norms."
While I agree with your analysis on Holden. Reluctant hero, to be sure. He sure did screw over Earth and Mars on a fairly regular basis to make his points stick. He disobeyed orders and protected a Belter ship, which got him bounced from the Navy. He declined promotion so he could keep shagging the pilot of the Cant. He went alone on sending out the message that got them caught by the Donny... and that was all before shooting down a medical relief vessel, shearing off the drive section of a UNN vessel, targetlocking every ship in the Ganymede AO as he escorted the Weeping Somnambulist away. In-universe, Holden will do just about anything to advance his own ends. He's a privateer, his motives and methods transcend in-universe moralities, which we can only see because we know all the pieces. It's not 'til the Behemoth that he gains the patina of "saviour" — in contact with the dead, chosen by the protomolecule for direct communication, and having escaped death enough times to engender trust.
For most of the others — Amos (that guy --> just walk away), Naomi (clubbing Cyn ‐‐> waking the Presence), and Alex (we don't talk about Alex) for running with Holden; Fred (stealing missiles, selling Inaros out to the Inners --> "in my quarters, stop them"), Drummer (executioner --> "speak plainly"), and Bobbie (warrior, defector, ronin, mercenary --> fucking Valkyrie) for materially supporting Holden; in-universe, they would also be regarded as Anti-Heroes until they're not because of their arcs. Don't hate the playa. Hate the game.
Maybe "hero of the belt" = anti-hero precisely because it undercuts the frame of a "classic" hero. Much to be learned, then. Maybe I just want them to be anti-heroes because I have so much respect for these characters, their subversion of "norms" and willingness to address a greater good.
Nice touch with the comparison between Amos and Shinji Ikari. If this had been 2 years ago, I wouldn't have known. I see it now.
Also, Clarissa Mao?
I agree with your view for how they're seen in universe, but "anti-hero" is a Doylian status rather than Watsonian.
Holden follows heroic, regarded as heroic by our 21st century Anglo-European society morality. Alex, while the heart of the gang is more of an anti-hero due to his commitment phobia and run of failed relationships.
They're all (except Amos (except he kinda is in his own way)) admirable characters, and worthy of emulation.
Clarissa, like Fred Johnson, and to a lesser extent Avasarala (although more so in the books) started off in antagonist roles, and thus tend to be more anti-hero /accepting of less moral choices because of that. Good arcs and development with all of them. But Johnson is more supporting cast, so doesn't quite get to anti-hero for me on that count, but made difficult choices to make up for past crimes.
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Bojack Horseman.
He’s such a terrible person but idk i love watching him and I root for him especially later seasons.
I'm not sure how long this will last, but I've still not forgiven Netflix for forcing the ending to be rushed. The last season should have been at least two seasons.
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Yes, the sinister toe wiggling
Tarantino. Toes. Figures.
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The Warden in Superjail!
You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone he's the hero.
Now, if you'd said Jailbot...
