Baldur's Gate 3 and Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2 show that the future of RPGs is in games way more ambitious, weird and unexpected than anything Bethesda and Bioware have to offer
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I find it bizarre that people think Starfield isn't "weird and ambitious". Starfield is absolutely weird and ambitious, that's why people didn't like it, it tried to do something new and that something new turned out to not be fun.
I disagree, if anything I think Starfield was Bethesda not going far enough.
They created a new setting and added a couple of new mechanics, but they cradled it in the same tired formula that they have been doing for decades.
I had hoped that since it was a new IP, this would be the moment they would take a chance and try something new. Try a new approach to quest design and world building, don't just make the game bigger but make the experience in it more varied with more interesting interactions. Instead it felt like new coat of paint on an old house and when they got called out on it, they became defensive.
I broke my heart when they said the lesson they learned was to stick to the same formula and when they tried to do it with Shattered Space, people hated it even more.
I hate to say it but it seems like Bethesda already peaked.
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But BioWare games used to be the top tier gaming company standard for excellence. Bethesda used to release amazingly ambitious titles that were unmatched (albeit buggy!).
Greed outweighs the love of games.
When do you think that stopped though?
There’s a lot of love for Skyrim, but I feel like there was already deterioration in the side quest writing, even strictly looking at Oblivion/FO3, not Morrowind.
As for BioWare, even ME3 was starting to show some cracks, even if you set the ending aside. And I loved Mass Effect to death. Heck, I'm even a bigger Andromeda fan than most.
…Point being I think we clung to BioWare/Bethesda even when the signs of deoxygenation were there.
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Personally I just want another RtwP CRPG.
I loved PoE1, didn't care much about PoE2, and will probably care less about Avowed. There's something magical about a map full of tiles that aren't revealed immediately compared to a world map that you can immediately tell how much has been explored.
Same thing for BG3. I love Larian (been a Kickstarter backer since the original D:OS days, been playing almost every one of their games on release day since Dragon Commander) and BG3's a great RPG, but it doesn't feel like a good BG game. BG2 gave an immediate sense of "I have no idea where to go so I can do whatever I want". BG3 is always nudging you to uncover the map and clear all the quests.
Personally I just want another RtwP CRPG.
How do you feel about Torment: Tides of Numenera?
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Should I buy Baldurs Gate 3, its extremely expensive still.
It’s polished and undoubtedly one of the best games of all time.
My only gripe is that I find the pause-based combat lengthy, though not bad.
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"Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all!"
Greedy CEOs, MAGA supporters, Islamists, Nazis, Tankies, all the same. If all of those people stopped existing tomorrow, then the world would undoubtably be a better place. I'm ready to die on that hill!
But is it even evil? Like there were contracts involved with terms and conditions. Its not like some guy with a handle bar mustash just swiped the IP and walked away. Someone agreed to the contract that resulted in the loss of their company/IP and if they didn't read it or consult with legal lawyer who's bad guy?
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Maybe KCD2 is for you then, it got rid of the fantasy part and has historic figures in it instead.
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The joke of these games is that they aren't notably more weird than titles Bethesda and Bioware were famous for turning out. Hard to get more weird than Fallout's more esoteric vaults or Morrowind's bizarre cults and exotic cultures.
BG3/KC:D have been, if anything, a direct successors to the old classics. They're faithfully propagating the ideas these old titles represented in a way the new studios are unable to reproduce.
Just finished Disco Elysium few days ago, watched the credits roll from start to finish to see all the great people working on it, such a great game…now I am sad for what happened to them, I didnt know that
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I can tell you haven't booted the game up recently because they completely redid the perk system and cyberware not too long ago.
CDPR has been atoning for the sin that was their failed launch for years. In my opinion, the game is a good game now.
That was over a year ago and I have. It's a bandaid on a dumpster.
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They are literally sequels. 2 and 3. That removes any chance of them being unexpected now doesn't it you dunce.
Ambitious, sure; if your definition of ambitious is delivering a complete game at release.
Weird? If you think these games are weird I'll absolutely punish your eyeballs with just some stuff on steam that will leave these two games looking absolutely mainstream.
I’ll absolutely punish your eyeballs with just some stuff on steam that will leave these two games looking absolutely mainstream.
Genuinely curious since that sounds interesting. What games are these?
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People understandably love to hate Oblivion and Fallout 3, but I feel the side quest writing had heart, like groups of devs got to go wild within their own little dungeons. Their exploitable mechanics were kinda endearing.
…And I didn’t get that from Starfield? I really tried to overlook the nostalgia factor, but all the writing felt… corporate. I abandoned it early and tried to see what I was missing on YouTube, but didn’t get it?
If you want a big walking sandbox in that vein, I feel like No Man's Sky would scratch the itch far better, no?
I got Cyberpunk in December and KCD2 in February. At this point I’m convinced I’ve spoiled the entire RPG genre for myself for the next decade. I can’t imagine playing 2 great games back to back like that again.
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Is it insanely good, like Factorio level polish, or was it just hyped due to recency bias?
It's not bad but I personally couldn't get into it, too much dnd.
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None of what you listed is "new". Also, Morrowind wasn't actually "strange" in the slightest. Plenty of fantasy RPGs had elements of sci-fi and weird bug shit (see: Wizardry and even Might and Magic) and the "you can screw up the main quest" was similarly common at the time. Planescape I'll give you.
Which is also true here. BG3 is not "strange", It is literally the third Baldurs Gate game and continues most of the same themes and concepts. Yeah, it is a whole lot more gay but even that is not out of the ordinary for CRPGs at this point and had been pushed by companies like Larian, Obsidian, and Owlcat. Hell, the Mass Effects and Dragon Ages deserve a LOT of props for how horny and gay they were and normalizing the idea of picking the right dialogue options for a sexy card cutscene (also see CD Projekt Red).
And KCD2 is one of the most bog standard power fantasy games out there.
Yeah, it is a whole lot more gay but even that is not out of the ordinary for CRPGs at this point and had been pushed by companies like Larian, Obsidian, and Owlcat. Hell, the Mass Effects and Dragon Ages deserve a LOT of props for how horny and gay they were and normalizing the idea of picking the right dialogue options for a sexy card cutscene (also see CD Projekt Red).
Haven't played BG3 yet, but I'm interested to read this because I've noticed a lot of discussion seems to be about romancing characters, and I don't remember that being a prominent feature in the first two. That said, I was a kid, so maybe that just went over my head at the time. Or is that something that Larian brought in from their other games?
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shut your whore mouth about faerun
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Yeah, it is a whole lot more gay but even that is not out of the ordinary for CRPGs at this point and had been pushed by companies like Larian, Obsidian, and Owlcat. Hell, the Mass Effects and Dragon Ages deserve a LOT of props for how horny and gay they were and normalizing the idea of picking the right dialogue options for a sexy card cutscene (also see CD Projekt Red).
Haven't played BG3 yet, but I'm interested to read this because I've noticed a lot of discussion seems to be about romancing characters, and I don't remember that being a prominent feature in the first two. That said, I was a kid, so maybe that just went over my head at the time. Or is that something that Larian brought in from their other games?
There were no sex cards, but if memory serves you could "romance" Jaheira (while effectively standing on the still warm corpse of her husband), Aerie (I remember that being kind of fucked but it has been 20 years), Viconia, and one of the boring dudes.
The "romances" weren't particularly well written but... they honestly aren't much better these days. We mostly just, as a culture, have moved on from needing everything to be a storybook romance and understanding that sometimes you just need a bang. Which makes "romance" in games a hell of a lot easier.
But also, since BG2 (well, NWN), Bioware have basically made their entire thing "romance options" and so forth. Similar to how Obsidian and Owlcat decided the real culture war was Turn Based versus Real Time With Pause. And Larian realized that we could do all the environmental nonsense that was originally only an option for tabletop games with GMs who didn't know why you were asking when it last rained.
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instead of an actual rpg they went with an mmo and an rts for eberron ... idk why
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But is it even evil? Like there were contracts involved with terms and conditions. Its not like some guy with a handle bar mustash just swiped the IP and walked away. Someone agreed to the contract that resulted in the loss of their company/IP and if they didn't read it or consult with legal lawyer who's bad guy?
Yes, yes it is! On what world would stealing someone's intellectual work and booting them out of their own company for the sole purpose to keep all of the money for yourself not be evil?
Funnily enough, making people sign unfair contracts is literally the most devilish thing ever. It's the one thing demons and devils do in pretty much every interpretation they appear in.
This is why we need more people like Luigi! -
Yes, yes it is! On what world would stealing someone's intellectual work and booting them out of their own company for the sole purpose to keep all of the money for yourself not be evil?
Funnily enough, making people sign unfair contracts is literally the most devilish thing ever. It's the one thing demons and devils do in pretty much every interpretation they appear in.
This is why we need more people like Luigi! -
help me understand then, because if its a bad contract you don't have to agree to it. so in what way are these people forced to sign contracts, and what are these terms and conditions that let people steal IP?
Not everyone is literate in contract law, so most people won't notice these kinds of hidden clauses that allow this. In this case it was a combination of signing over the IP to the developing company which they coowned. because that's pretty standard procedure. Together with the investors managing to get a majority share of the company and forcing the original devs out by vote.
Just one of the reasons why smart people just license out their IPs. This way no one can take it from you. But again, you have to know quite a bit about contract law to know how this works.
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Not everyone is literate in contract law, so most people won't notice these kinds of hidden clauses that allow this. In this case it was a combination of signing over the IP to the developing company which they coowned. because that's pretty standard procedure. Together with the investors managing to get a majority share of the company and forcing the original devs out by vote.
Just one of the reasons why smart people just license out their IPs. This way no one can take it from you. But again, you have to know quite a bit about contract law to know how this works.
So what yoy are saying is, if they had gotten a lawyer and done some research they could have avoided this issue. Now compare this level of injustice to the genocide that has been happening in the middle east, of these two, which deserves my emotional energy?
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I don't believe you. That game exists, it's called Starfield, and it failed specifically because of its sci-fi setting and for no other reason.
fucking lol.
- terrible game design
- zero game direction
- nonsensical script
- not even 2 dimensional characters
- incredibly unlikeable companions
- bad dialog
- fallout 4 style fake choices and railroading, only one way to complete most quests,
- open world" that requires fast travel, completely undercutting exploration
- immersion breaking loading screens for literally everything, even following cutscenes which aren't used for bg loading for some reason
- spaceship fantasy that barely makes use of the spaceship, it's just a toy you can decorate but can't properly pilot, space combat is horrendously bad even though other games nailed it in the fucking 90s
- planet exploration fantasy that breaks planets into tiny chunks even though no man's sky existed for years
- open world fantasy where discovery is undercut by the fact that the same assets are reused over and over. like not even texture and models randomized to have some variation, but entire buildings copied including the placement of objects inside.
- classic Bethesda style afraid to lock the player out of anything approach that means you have no choices to make, just get through everything in the order you like ... be a cop and a thief and a merchant and a cultist and a garbage man why not
- vast space fantasy with a gazillion planets yet you are the center of everything
- scifi universe that doesn't have means of long distance communication for some reason, needing you to go back and forth between planets just to relay messages
i can go on but got bored.
the fact that you claim that the only problem starfield had was it's scifi setting when massively successful scifi games like cyberpunk, deus ex, half life, nier, mass effect etc exist just proves you know nothing about video games.
and more specifically your seem to have no idea what people want from rpgs if you even consider starfield to be one worth mentioning, let alone an exemplary one.
