And all the antivaxxers I ever knew sure like recreational substances too.
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I’ve read the first study already, it doesn’t comment at all on the hunger signaling aspect.
The second study is just proposing this as a mechanism which may account for weight regain. They spin off pretty quickly into a more matter-of-fact tone while presenting the hypothesis itself, but at the moment it remains speculation. I obviously haven’t had the time to click through to every reference in there, but so far the links I have checked similarly lead to speculation.
Basically I think it’s somewhat dishonest to present this hypothesis as a statement of fact. I feel like the inevitable result of this mischaracterization will cause people to not even try. Why bother if something is probably impossible, or only one in a million could do it?
Thank you for linking it however, and I will be very interested to know if Professor MacLean verifies the concept. Of note, in the conclusion they propose that environmental and behavioral interventions will be important for combatting this effect, if it does turn out to be true
You're right the second article probably doesn't support the hunger bit enough. As i understand it, the hunger signaling is largely an absence of leptin, which is a hormone that regulates appetite. The increase in fat cells from obesity leads to more leptin production and then leptin resistance, so it's less effective. When you diet and lose the weight the fat cells aren't producing as much leptin and you're resistant to what they are producing so you're comparatively hungrier than you may have been if you stayed at a healthier weight. I believe the leptin sensitivity can recover and be improved through other ways but I'm not an expert.
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I’m down 100lbs and been chilling there for a a while actually. (I do bulk/cut cycles of around 30lbs for bodybuilding so my total weight loss fluctuates from like 120lbs to 90lbs depending on how that’s going. Just for disclosure)
But I’ve heard a few people mention this idea that “fat cells stick around forever” and “send hunger signals to fill you back up”. Do we have a scientific source for this?
My other thing with it is like, that’s not the reason someone gets fat the first time right? Because the idea is your fat cells start multiplying after a certain weight? So regardless it still seems important to address that first cause and not repeat it
But for me personally I just haven’t really experienced it at all lol. I’ve found that actually the type of food I eat makes me hungry and more likely to go off track. Like any fast food, most prepackaged snacks and prepared meals from the grocery store.
Like I could eat an 800cal pint of ice cream then have dinner 45 minutes later. But 200 calories of frozen grapes and I’m like, stuffed lol. Or I’ve also noticed if I have a doughnut in the morning (work offers them) I’m hungry all day, but eggs cheese oats and yogurt leave me satisfied to the point where I’m not hungry at all when I get home, and eat just because I know I need the nutrition from dinner.
Anyway sorry for rambling, really I’m just curious to get to the bottom of the “depleted fat cell” thing. I had never heard of it the entire time I was losing weight/maintaining then all of the sudden I’m hearing it pop up in lots of places, even lemmy now
The "fat cells are multiplying" is normal when having surplus calories in the body. The "empty fat cells scream hunger" is something that was suspected basically for ages, but has finally be proven not long ago, the paper is less than half a year old. It had been referred to here on Lemmy, at least to a science or nature article that pointed to the paper.
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You're right the second article probably doesn't support the hunger bit enough. As i understand it, the hunger signaling is largely an absence of leptin, which is a hormone that regulates appetite. The increase in fat cells from obesity leads to more leptin production and then leptin resistance, so it's less effective. When you diet and lose the weight the fat cells aren't producing as much leptin and you're resistant to what they are producing so you're comparatively hungrier than you may have been if you stayed at a healthier weight. I believe the leptin sensitivity can recover and be improved through other ways but I'm not an expert.
Thank you again for the link, but it seems like you’re just reiterating the hypothesis without any supporting evidence? We have a proposed mechanistic explanation for the phenomena that requires further study. My point of contention is that it should be presented as such, and not as a granted fact
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The "fat cells are multiplying" is normal when having surplus calories in the body. The "empty fat cells scream hunger" is something that was suspected basically for ages, but has finally be proven not long ago, the paper is less than half a year old. It had been referred to here on Lemmy, at least to a science or nature article that pointed to the paper.
Could you direct me to the paper where it was proven? There seems to be a notable amount of bad journalism and broad misrepresentation of the science on this topic.
We are basically discussing whether or not obesity is an inescapable condemnation, so we should not sensationalize the topic whatsoever, and we should especially not present it as a fact if it is not a fact
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¿Por qué no los dos?
I'll take every vaccine I can get. Hell, I would sign up for the smallpox vaccine if I could get it, even though that disease hasn't existed in the wild in decades. I want every covid booster. I want it all! Jab me up, give me that sweet MRNA!
And I'll take the other stuff too. I love me a good edible. I'm on tirzepatide myself, even though insurance doesn't cover it. How do I afford it? Simple! I pirate the hell out of it!
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¿Por qué no los dos?
I'll take every vaccine I can get. Hell, I would sign up for the smallpox vaccine if I could get it, even though that disease hasn't existed in the wild in decades. I want every covid booster. I want it all! Jab me up, give me that sweet MRNA!
And I'll take the other stuff too. I love me a good edible. I'm on tirzepatide myself, even though insurance doesn't cover it. How do I afford it? Simple! I pirate the hell out of it!
I just got prescriptions from my GP for the pneumococcal and RSV vaccines because it turns out that I qualify. Anything I can get vaccinated for I do, because fuck antivaxxers.
I know someone who is a 60 year old smoker who went and lied to public health that she was a sex worker to get the MPOX vaccine, which makes me laugh, but i wouldn't mind it myself because you can get it touching surfaces.
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Thank you again for the link, but it seems like you’re just reiterating the hypothesis without any supporting evidence? We have a proposed mechanistic explanation for the phenomena that requires further study. My point of contention is that it should be presented as such, and not as a granted fact
Maybe my sources aren't great, I use kagi nowadays over Google and they have an academic filter (like Google scholar). That's all I used to find the few things I linked.
It's well established that your fat cell count is relatively stable as an adult and that as you gain significant weight that your body creates more fat cells to store this energy. It's known that the number of cells stay relatively stable even after losing weight, they just shrink. It's also known that leptin, or lack there of, affects your hunger. These things specifically are well documented. Other points of what I shared, and the overall impact may be, still hypothetical.
I'm not going to keep looking for and reading articles because I'm not finding what you're looking for and that's all good. I don't want to act like I'm an expert, I'm just a nerd reading things on the internet.
That's not to say, though, that this fat cell count is the end all be all and it's impossible to lose weight because you've already gained too much — your own situation is proof of that. It's just added context, not a barrier. Highly satiating foods like what you've mentioned, grapes over ice cream, eggs oats and yogurt over donuts, these make a much bigger impact on your overall hunger. I feel it too, I'm overweight and working on losing it, and if i snack on something like chips, it almost feels like it does nothing for me. That's why all the weight loss advice mentions high protein and High fiber foods.
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Maybe my sources aren't great, I use kagi nowadays over Google and they have an academic filter (like Google scholar). That's all I used to find the few things I linked.
It's well established that your fat cell count is relatively stable as an adult and that as you gain significant weight that your body creates more fat cells to store this energy. It's known that the number of cells stay relatively stable even after losing weight, they just shrink. It's also known that leptin, or lack there of, affects your hunger. These things specifically are well documented. Other points of what I shared, and the overall impact may be, still hypothetical.
I'm not going to keep looking for and reading articles because I'm not finding what you're looking for and that's all good. I don't want to act like I'm an expert, I'm just a nerd reading things on the internet.
That's not to say, though, that this fat cell count is the end all be all and it's impossible to lose weight because you've already gained too much — your own situation is proof of that. It's just added context, not a barrier. Highly satiating foods like what you've mentioned, grapes over ice cream, eggs oats and yogurt over donuts, these make a much bigger impact on your overall hunger. I feel it too, I'm overweight and working on losing it, and if i snack on something like chips, it almost feels like it does nothing for me. That's why all the weight loss advice mentions high protein and High fiber foods.
Gotcha, yeah and thanks once again for the discussion. What I’m looking for basically is just evidence for the claim posted above us, specifically that “it is a fact that weight loss results in lifelong ravenous hunger due to fat cell signaling”
Scientists all the time come out with reviews and proposals that ultimately fizzle out without supporting evidence. So before I am able to believe any specific claims I need to see that it’s an actual scientific finding rather than just something tentative that has caught headlines (like I said, it happens all the time).
Since you like reading studies in general, for your own amusement I would suggest investigating the claim “cooking rice with coconut oil, then leaving it in the fridge overnight, will reduce the calories absorbed by your body by half!”
It’s a total and blatant piece of misinformation based on a chain of bad news reports made about a study that claimed something totally different, and was subsequently never confirmed. Yet I have met people in real life who swore by the method (even though they struggled to lose weight regardless of this supposed calorie cutting “hack”).
The weight loss space in general is totally flooded with this type of misinfo which is why I get so particular about it. Thank you again!
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That's my granddaughter.
Fully vaxxed EXCEPT for covid. Calls the first (of many) times she caught as 'when I almost died'. She's currently injecting one of the fun crop of weight loss drugs without a second thought because there aren't any TikTok influencers who are telling her it's dangerous.
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My favorite hypocrite is Jenny McCarthy who obviously has never met a cosmetic injectable she doesn't like but was one of the foremost anti-vax idiots out there.
Botulism toxin injected directly into my face -
A vaccine preventing measles mumps and rubella -
️
️🩹
Yeah, but botulism is all natural.
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That's my granddaughter.
Fully vaxxed EXCEPT for covid. Calls the first (of many) times she caught as 'when I almost died'. She's currently injecting one of the fun crop of weight loss drugs without a second thought because there aren't any TikTok influencers who are telling her it's dangerous.
Ozempic hospitalized my ex for 12 days and he's now in a class action lawsuit against the makers because it's a known side effect that wasn't warned against. It's not something to play with at all.
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My favorite hypocrite is Jenny McCarthy who obviously has never met a cosmetic injectable she doesn't like but was one of the foremost anti-vax idiots out there.
Botulism toxin injected directly into my face -
A vaccine preventing measles mumps and rubella -
️️🩹Botox is actually super helpful for a number of legitimate medical reasons, which a lot of people don't know. Migraines, limb contractures, anal fissures as a few examples.m
I hope Jenny McCarthy stubs her toe.
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I just got prescriptions from my GP for the pneumococcal and RSV vaccines because it turns out that I qualify. Anything I can get vaccinated for I do, because fuck antivaxxers.
I know someone who is a 60 year old smoker who went and lied to public health that she was a sex worker to get the MPOX vaccine, which makes me laugh, but i wouldn't mind it myself because you can get it touching surfaces.
My grandfather only lived to be a father because of the polio vaccine. Even my stepmother had polio in the fucking womb... it ate her kneecaps... she became a dancer to build leg muscle strength. My family has a valid, empirical respect for vaccines. I am a nurse and when I was young, I passed on the flu shots... until I got the flu... and found out what that hell was, I wasn't sure if I would survive it. After that, I will get every flu shot offered, I take every Covid Booster, I go the shingles vax and next year, I will be eligible for the RSV shot. I am getting them all, like Pokeman.
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Ozempic hospitalized my ex for 12 days and he's now in a class action lawsuit against the makers because it's a known side effect that wasn't warned against. It's not something to play with at all.
What's the side effect if you don't mind sharing?
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What's the side effect if you don't mind sharing?
Not at all. He's diabetic; Ozempic basically caused his gastric muscles to stop working, which is called gastroparesis. He began vomiting and having diarrhea over a period of days, and became unable to take his diabetic meds because he couldn't keep anything down. I came home and found him basically comatose, and he was in a state called euglycemic diabetic ketoacidosis, which is a new thing with all the Ozempic type drugs, where your sugars aren't all that high but the severity of your condition is masked by the Ozempic, and you end up overproducing ketones in your blood because your sugar is out of control. The ketosis part reversed quickly with IV insulin, but the gastroparesis and associated esophagitis from all the vomiting meant he had to stay in hospital for quite some time. He has permanent damage to his gastric system. The makers of the drug didn't disclose this and it's turned up in several others; my GP friend had two patients with the same situation. So they're all in a lawsuit, and I'm super leery of these drugs.
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My grandfather only lived to be a father because of the polio vaccine. Even my stepmother had polio in the fucking womb... it ate her kneecaps... she became a dancer to build leg muscle strength. My family has a valid, empirical respect for vaccines. I am a nurse and when I was young, I passed on the flu shots... until I got the flu... and found out what that hell was, I wasn't sure if I would survive it. After that, I will get every flu shot offered, I take every Covid Booster, I go the shingles vax and next year, I will be eligible for the RSV shot. I am getting them all, like Pokeman.
Nurses not getting vaccinated is an unreal phenomenon, isn't it? I work in a hospital, and some nurses who worked with COVID ECMO patients refused the COVID vaccine and got let go. How could you look at these people withering away and not want to be protected?
The flu shot is super important. I read about a preteen boy in Ohio whose parents didn't get him vaccinated, and he got influenza, and immediately got bacterial pneumonia and died, and his mother is wailing about how fast it all happened. Um, it didn't need to happen at all, they don't give them out for fun! I've thankfully never had it myself.
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Anyone around here have actual experience with ozempic? My dr has actuality suggested it for a potential heart issue, to help clear up the system i guess. But everyone online talks about it like it’s heroine
I'll bite. I'm on it for what some people here would consider "recreational" purposes (weight loss). However, I have polycystic ovaries and have had extreme difficulty losing weight in other ways. Essentially the only way I can lose weight is doing a pretty severe calorie deficit, which is really hard to do and essentially means I am starving all the time. Ozempic has helped me curb that perpetual feeling of hunger, and besides diarrhea (which I already had often anyway), it hasn't caused me that many side effects.
Essentially PCOS causes a craving for carbs and sugar. It's hard to fill that hole, but there are other ways to supplement the things that my body is not creating which make me crave those things. While I'm on ozempic (I don't plan on using it long-term) I'm also working to make changes to my diet to make sure I'm getting those things I was missing (B12, chromium picolante, some other stuff with scientific names).
And I know people think it's just "lazy", which it is for some people, but I struggle to lose weight even with exercise and calorie deficits. Ozempic has helped me lose some, but not as drastic as other people.
I have friends who are on waygovy (the same drug as ozempic but specifically targeted at weight loss) and they've had more side effects than me, but they are significantly bigger, have less healthy lifestyles and are I believe on a much higher dose than me. They've lost a ton of weight though.
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Nurses not getting vaccinated is an unreal phenomenon, isn't it? I work in a hospital, and some nurses who worked with COVID ECMO patients refused the COVID vaccine and got let go. How could you look at these people withering away and not want to be protected?
The flu shot is super important. I read about a preteen boy in Ohio whose parents didn't get him vaccinated, and he got influenza, and immediately got bacterial pneumonia and died, and his mother is wailing about how fast it all happened. Um, it didn't need to happen at all, they don't give them out for fun! I've thankfully never had it myself.
Not just not getting vaccinated but actively promoting ng against it. They should be fired immediately. All the other so called medical professionals who take that track as well.
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Not at all. He's diabetic; Ozempic basically caused his gastric muscles to stop working, which is called gastroparesis. He began vomiting and having diarrhea over a period of days, and became unable to take his diabetic meds because he couldn't keep anything down. I came home and found him basically comatose, and he was in a state called euglycemic diabetic ketoacidosis, which is a new thing with all the Ozempic type drugs, where your sugars aren't all that high but the severity of your condition is masked by the Ozempic, and you end up overproducing ketones in your blood because your sugar is out of control. The ketosis part reversed quickly with IV insulin, but the gastroparesis and associated esophagitis from all the vomiting meant he had to stay in hospital for quite some time. He has permanent damage to his gastric system. The makers of the drug didn't disclose this and it's turned up in several others; my GP friend had two patients with the same situation. So they're all in a lawsuit, and I'm super leery of these drugs.
Fat phobia has killed so many and messed up so much research imo. We need fats and fat soluble vitamins, but in the right proportions to each other. I understand Ozempic is ostensibly for diabetes (and obv idk anything about your husband or his weight or why he took it, not assuming he has fat phobia himself), but rapid weight loss like that means people are likely going without adequate vitamins for quite some time, causing the body to eat its own tissues like bones, bone marrow, muscle, liver, and so on, to carry on the most important tasks for life.
Gastroparesis is often associated with vitamin d, b12, iron, and magnesium deficiencies. Fat soluble vitamins have a ton of downstream effects on other vitamins and each other, and many actually help with diabetes.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7469006/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34440929/
https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12937-023-00840-1
https://diabetes.org/food-nutrition/diabetes-vitamins-supplements/low-vitamin-d-insulin-resistance
They are not putting the Ozempic patients on vitamin therapy or even monitoring fat soluble vitamins afaik. BTW, the pancreas helps with processing fat soluble vitamins by making lipase, not just glucose/insulin. So anything that affects the pancreas, which Ozempic does, has the potential to affect fat soluble vitamins as well which have a LOT of downstream effects that have been catalogued for decades but doctors just kinda ignore??? Due to fat phobia.
I don't blame you for suing, they are selling you malnutrition in a pill because they hate fat cells
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Nurses not getting vaccinated is an unreal phenomenon, isn't it? I work in a hospital, and some nurses who worked with COVID ECMO patients refused the COVID vaccine and got let go. How could you look at these people withering away and not want to be protected?
The flu shot is super important. I read about a preteen boy in Ohio whose parents didn't get him vaccinated, and he got influenza, and immediately got bacterial pneumonia and died, and his mother is wailing about how fast it all happened. Um, it didn't need to happen at all, they don't give them out for fun! I've thankfully never had it myself.
As someone working in a hospital, how are you not on every vaccine, especially those for world travelers? If someone picks up something unusual from a different part of the world, they will be going to the hospital, they will be exposing you to it
