And all the antivaxxers I ever knew sure like recreational substances too.
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Botox is actually super helpful for a number of legitimate medical reasons, which a lot of people don't know. Migraines, limb contractures, anal fissures as a few examples.m
I hope Jenny McCarthy stubs her toe.
Can we swap that with falls feet first into a wood chipper at 75 percent power?
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Yeah, but botulism is all natural.
That's what I tell myself when I eat expired MREs!
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Oppositional defiant disorder. Very well understood, researched heavily especially in young children.
Can it be induced by media consumption and cult behavior?
Or are they all kids that had it beaten out of them, but never properly treated, and now we all have to deal with the aftermath.
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You completely ignored the “permanent lifestyle change” aspect. It doesn’t matter whether the person in need of weight loss does it via diet and exercise or via diet and ozempic, the diet/lifestyle that they got themselves fat on has to change.
You’re basically blaming the drug for the person’s inability to psychologically deal with diet. That isn’t what the drug does. No, you don’t need to eat back to your old weight, that’s the part where permanent change to diet comes in.
I already stated a caveat for conditions that may be outside the user’s control, so don’t use that as an excuse for all users. Yet again, the doctor and patient have to discuss the risks. I’m done here.
While your point is technically true, you're ignoring the bigger picture. Some people are genetically predetermined to having an uncontrollable appetite. We're talking about something that for some people is so extreme it's worse than the worst addictions. Willpower is just outright a nonstarter, especially when you factor in the presence of our toxic food environment (ie., the way super markets are so stuffed full of junk food and junk food advertising that it becomes virtually guaranteed that the vast majority of people will habitually eat poorly).
Ozempic is absolutely an appropriate choice for people who struggle with appetite control. It may not be perfect, and ultimately it is best to do whatever we can for lifestyle interventions, but sometimes we just have to work with what we've got too.
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Can it be induced by media consumption and cult behavior?
Or are they all kids that had it beaten out of them, but never properly treated, and now we all have to deal with the aftermath.
I don't see anyone dealing with it.
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Anyone around here have actual experience with ozempic? My dr has actuality suggested it for a potential heart issue, to help clear up the system i guess. But everyone online talks about it like it’s heroine
I've never taken Ozempic, but I did used to be a pharmacy tech, and having to tell patients that it was unavailable due to supply issues, on a daily basis, really sucked. I'm sure it was much worse for them.
Ozempic can be the right choice, but it's good to do plenty of research, and if you can, prioritize lifestyle interventions first. Here's a video series on Ozempic, as well as ways that you can stimulate glp-1 production naturally through diet and lifestyle-
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5TLzNi5fYd90bMuM9SuzQ83E1IsM3Yy4
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If you take ozempic for weight loss but choose to continue eating like shit then it isn’t the drug’s fault.
That's not how it works. Ozempic simply opresses the hunger feeling, therefor helping you lose weight. Problem is that still existing, but empty/depleted fat cells basically scream "we are hungry", so as soon as you get off Ozempic, you basically can't stop eating until you regained at least the former state. That was - for me - the reason not to start on Ozempic, it's like the "bounce back" effect after a diet, but on steroids. That current research has found other issues (heart problems, ocular nerve damages) just enforced my rejection (I was offered this on a free prescription base).
I think most medications are meant to be accompanied with permanent lifestyle changes where possible. No, you should not take this drug “forever”.
That is a very idealistic view, at least on some medication. With Ozempic, this is basically impossible due to the circumstances written above, with other medications it is simply due to the fact that no "lifestyle changes" can change e.g. genetic defects.
empty/depleted fat cells basically scream “we are hungry”, so as soon as you get off Ozempic, you basically can’t stop eating until you regained at least the former state.
I don't think that is quite right. If people on Ozempic use the opportunity to adapt to a low carbohydrate diet, when they come off the drugs they won't be suffering from the save sugar craving addiction cycle.
Fat cells don't scream "we are hungry" they scream "we are full" that is what leptin signaling is for, but carbohydrate addiction is a much stronger signal for many people.
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Gotcha, yeah and thanks once again for the discussion. What I’m looking for basically is just evidence for the claim posted above us, specifically that “it is a fact that weight loss results in lifelong ravenous hunger due to fat cell signaling”
Scientists all the time come out with reviews and proposals that ultimately fizzle out without supporting evidence. So before I am able to believe any specific claims I need to see that it’s an actual scientific finding rather than just something tentative that has caught headlines (like I said, it happens all the time).
Since you like reading studies in general, for your own amusement I would suggest investigating the claim “cooking rice with coconut oil, then leaving it in the fridge overnight, will reduce the calories absorbed by your body by half!”
It’s a total and blatant piece of misinformation based on a chain of bad news reports made about a study that claimed something totally different, and was subsequently never confirmed. Yet I have met people in real life who swore by the method (even though they struggled to lose weight regardless of this supposed calorie cutting “hack”).
The weight loss space in general is totally flooded with this type of misinfo which is why I get so particular about it. Thank you again!
What I’m looking for basically is just evidence for the claim posted above us, specifically that “it is a fact that weight loss results in lifelong ravenous hunger due to fat cell signaling”
In my reading the the literature there is nothing to support this "fat cells make you hungry" theory.
At best there is an association between fat people and fat cell population, but given hyperplasia is more common in people of european descent its not a causal connection. Plus this theory doesn't account for fat people from hypertrophic populations (asians).
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Vaccines are required because most viruses can infect virtually anyone. Ozempic is not because most people are not overweight and many who are are able to loose the weight naturally. You can use your drug however you like but please stop making these insane comparisons
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I'm sorry, but what? Weight gain is most primarily the result of calorie surplus, with genetics playing a major role as well. Telling people to take random vitamins, especially when you don't know the full story of their dietary and micronutrient status is just completely inappropriate and unhelpful.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]That's such a simplistic look at weight gain lol. Wanting food is caused by neurochemicals in your body first before you even eat a bite. Eg Prader-Willis patients gain weight because they have excess ghrellin which makes them super hungry. (It's obvious they do not have Prader-Willis).
Vitamins are over the counter. We are supposed to eat them every day. Doctors literally ask you if you eat a balanced diet as their first screening question because they are supposed to fix vitamin deficiencies first before treating anything else (lol as if they do that). I think adults, who walk by these same vitamins every day at the store and see ads for them, can read a vague internet comment that they know is a stranger, and know if they should talk to their doctor about their health conditions etc or not. I think they can decide for themselves if they want to try a vitamin regimen, that again, is over the counter and has recommended daily intakes by nutritionists so your body can function.
Further, there is no overdose range for vitamin k, as in, we haven't found an upper limit where it'll kill you, although if deficient in vitamin e, then blood clots can happen. COQ10 is likewise very safe.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19096117/Vitamin E is pretty safe unless you macrodose it every day for a while, and even then, as long as you've got vitamin k (and in some weightlifters do vitamin C) on board it shouldn't be an issue. And again, I never said to macrodose or gave any dose, so why the shaming and policing?
Last, most overweight people are eating a lot of animal products that contain retinol type vitamin a instead of beta carotene type vitamin a found in plants. Because of the way retinol works, you HAVE to absorb it. To deal with the extra retinol, you need vitamin e and vitamin k, so you start craving fats. Then often people want meat and cheese or a pasta with meat, lasagna, pizza, etc, (which btw I eat too and I eat meat) and yeah they get some vitamin k in that, but not enough vitamin e to deal with the retinol. Which then causes stuff like eczema, allergies, pink irritated skin, dry skin, headache, high blood pressure, nausea, diarrhea - the stuff on the accutane side effects list.
So the craving continues and feeds itself. I used to be hungry AFTER I ATE and wished I could eat more, and that's not uncommon in people who eat caloric excess - because they actually DO need to eat something else.
If you take vitamin e, it treats vitamin a overdose symptoms relating to the skin sloughing off and heightened immune system issues. But also vitamin e should be given with vitamin k since vitamin k is relatively benign anyway and helps produce osteocalcin which helps people exercise and want to move/feel good moving.
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That's such a simplistic look at weight gain lol. Wanting food is caused by neurochemicals in your body first before you even eat a bite. Eg Prader-Willis patients gain weight because they have excess ghrellin which makes them super hungry. (It's obvious they do not have Prader-Willis).
Vitamins are over the counter. We are supposed to eat them every day. Doctors literally ask you if you eat a balanced diet as their first screening question because they are supposed to fix vitamin deficiencies first before treating anything else (lol as if they do that). I think adults, who walk by these same vitamins every day at the store and see ads for them, can read a vague internet comment that they know is a stranger, and know if they should talk to their doctor about their health conditions etc or not. I think they can decide for themselves if they want to try a vitamin regimen, that again, is over the counter and has recommended daily intakes by nutritionists so your body can function.
Further, there is no overdose range for vitamin k, as in, we haven't found an upper limit where it'll kill you, although if deficient in vitamin e, then blood clots can happen. COQ10 is likewise very safe.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19096117/Vitamin E is pretty safe unless you macrodose it every day for a while, and even then, as long as you've got vitamin k (and in some weightlifters do vitamin C) on board it shouldn't be an issue. And again, I never said to macrodose or gave any dose, so why the shaming and policing?
Last, most overweight people are eating a lot of animal products that contain retinol type vitamin a instead of beta carotene type vitamin a found in plants. Because of the way retinol works, you HAVE to absorb it. To deal with the extra retinol, you need vitamin e and vitamin k, so you start craving fats. Then often people want meat and cheese or a pasta with meat, lasagna, pizza, etc, (which btw I eat too and I eat meat) and yeah they get some vitamin k in that, but not enough vitamin e to deal with the retinol. Which then causes stuff like eczema, allergies, pink irritated skin, dry skin, headache, high blood pressure, nausea, diarrhea - the stuff on the accutane side effects list.
So the craving continues and feeds itself. I used to be hungry AFTER I ATE and wished I could eat more, and that's not uncommon in people who eat caloric excess - because they actually DO need to eat something else.
If you take vitamin e, it treats vitamin a overdose symptoms relating to the skin sloughing off and heightened immune system issues. But also vitamin e should be given with vitamin k since vitamin k is relatively benign anyway and helps produce osteocalcin which helps people exercise and want to move/feel good moving.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Look at my last few comments. I'm well aware of the psychological role and appetite in weight loss, I literally brought it up elsewhere. I didn't bring it up here because it wasn't relevant, I was speaking strictly about the physiological side of weight. It's just basic thermodynamics. If you take in more energy than you use, you're going to accrue a surplus. And if you're burning more energy than you take in, your stores are going to deplete. There might be various factors that attenuate this equation plus or minus, but every real, science-backed, time-tested weight loss plan still respects the central role of calorie management.
And of all the absurd weight loss strategies I have ever heard of, a handful of fat-soluble vitamins is news to me. It literally just sounds like your own personal anecdote. And aside from it not seeming to have any real evidence behind it, and the issue of it likely not being a broadly helpful protocol for most other people even if it somehow maybe helped you; the issue I take with it is that wherever feasible, a person should get their micronutrients from whole food sources. We evolved eating food, not supplements. The way nutrients interact in our bodies is can in some cases be completely different if they're in an isolated form, than if they're in their intact whole food form. Getting nutrients from food, particularly if you're managing to eat a diversity of foods, also makes it a lot less likely that you're going to overdose on them.
Which brings me to the other side of that. All of this stuff you're saying about toxicity just sounds like copium. It's especially aggravating because if you ask any nutritional expert, they will tell you straight away that the fat soluble vitamins are exactly the ones you should be most careful with. Those are the ones that accumulate in the body over time, and most easily get to toxic levels.
Seriously, your advice is irresponsible. You really need to stop, and by the sounds of it, maybe dial down your vitamin doses.
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Look at my last few comments. I'm well aware of the psychological role and appetite in weight loss, I literally brought it up elsewhere. I didn't bring it up here because it wasn't relevant, I was speaking strictly about the physiological side of weight. It's just basic thermodynamics. If you take in more energy than you use, you're going to accrue a surplus. And if you're burning more energy than you take in, your stores are going to deplete. There might be various factors that attenuate this equation plus or minus, but every real, science-backed, time-tested weight loss plan still respects the central role of calorie management.
And of all the absurd weight loss strategies I have ever heard of, a handful of fat-soluble vitamins is news to me. It literally just sounds like your own personal anecdote. And aside from it not seeming to have any real evidence behind it, and the issue of it likely not being a broadly helpful protocol for most other people even if it somehow maybe helped you; the issue I take with it is that wherever feasible, a person should get their micronutrients from whole food sources. We evolved eating food, not supplements. The way nutrients interact in our bodies is can in some cases be completely different if they're in an isolated form, than if they're in their intact whole food form. Getting nutrients from food, particularly if you're managing to eat a diversity of foods, also makes it a lot less likely that you're going to overdose on them.
Which brings me to the other side of that. All of this stuff you're saying about toxicity just sounds like copium. It's especially aggravating because if you ask any nutritional expert, they will tell you straight away that the fat soluble vitamins are exactly the ones you should be most careful with. Those are the ones that accumulate in the body over time, and most easily get to toxic levels.
Seriously, your advice is irresponsible. You really need to stop, and by the sounds of it, maybe dial down your vitamin doses.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Yikes, dawg.
The brain is the body. They aren't separate.
I brought up caloric excess in my other comment. I'm aware caloric excess causes weight gain simplisticly, but like I said, that is a simplistic take that ignores eveything else about the body and how people function as bodies. It's a great attitude if you have an eating disorder or want to punish people for being fat though while ignoring their vitamin needs.
Food cravings are physiological in nature. Why people even WANT to eat when they already know about calories is what matters.
Foods are made of vitamins, minerals, proteins, carbs, fats (which many are vitamins), and probably stuff I'm not thinking of. Plus we eat stuff like microplastics, dust in the air, lint, whatever incidental things. And then we also have a microbiome that interacts with all this, and that respond adaptively to pathogens, eg hydrogen peroxide producing bacteria, plus the pathogens themselves. We come into contact with pathogens a LOT, and most of the time our immune system just deals with it, it's not a big deal. Same with cancer actually.
There's stuff going on under the hood, is my point, and we don't know what our cellular buddies are dealing with and if they need more of a certain vitamin or not, they don't burden us with minutiae. We just think, "fuuuuck, a goat cheese hummus salad would slap right now," because biochemical pathways in our brain light up and we start feeling hunger.
Calories follow basic thermodynamics, yes, but your body is very complex. The goal isn't thin and malnourished and sick, the goal is usually healthy and fit and feeling good.
And if you’re burning more energy than you take in, your stores are going to deplete
This is what I mean by simplistic. You wave your hand and say your body is simply "burning energy," when it is actually an endlessly intricate bioelectrochemical dance between entire cities of unicellular life and tiny multicellular life (and some viruses) with whole lives of their own. It's crazy what happens inside us and how we adapt.
There is actually a lot of literature (like since before the 50s) on fat soluble vitamins and I linked some elsewhere itt for general reading on how it relates to insulin and Ozempic in simple terms. That you don't know that, that I know more than you, is obvious and you should probably stop externalizing. There's also tons of modern dieticians and nutritionists (with doctorates) who practice this exact philosophy, and indeed it is what our entire recommended daily intake is based on.
Supplements are made from food, especially the ones I listed. Go look at the ingredient labels. And people know they can get vitamins from food and can look that up, as that is common knowledge.
They don't HAVE to take a stranger's advice lmfao.
Again there's no safety issues with the supplements I was talking about. I'm aware of which supplements are more dangerous.
We didn't evolve to breathe car exhaust every day and we do, so maybe there are external oressure we have these days we didn'thave before. 0I think our bodies are very adaptable given the wide range of biomes (incl sun exposure/vitamin d availability) we occupy, and we might need some extra vitamins every now and then. Supplement or whole food, either way.
People overdose on selenium with brazil nuts pretty often, because it takes so few to overdose and they don't realize. Arctic explorers ate a ton of polar bear liver with 1,000,000 times recommended retinol in one bite, one died and the other's feet sloughed off and almost died. You yourself simply don't eat food sources that will kill you, because everything you eat is from a super market lol and safe. Some whole foods can kill with vitamin dosages and can vary widely in their dose. With supplements, you know the exact amounts and are somewhat less likely to "overdose" based on that alone. Plus, you can take vitamins individually/independently for a while and see how your body responds to know if that specific vitamin is helpful or not, then choose a whole food source once you understand what vitamins you need.
Drs say that because they don't want you to take retinol in excess or be careless with your doses. It's okay to take a normal daily dose. Some doctors have eating disorders and fat phobia too by the way, and those doctors tend to be pretty ignorant about fat soluble vitamins and nutrition itself. And again, vitamin k has no upper threshold at all. We inject it into newborns at pretty high doses and have since the 60s. You aren't going to get "toxic levels" of vitamin e or coq10 in your body either lol unless you deliberately megadose.
Ps liver and heart are good whole food sources of these vitamins
Pss laughable you criticize recommending vitamins when people here want to casually take Ozempic because their favorite anorexic celeb did it and looks great (on tv with filters and editing). And just shows your anger is misplaced
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They really came out of the wood work when the covid vaccines were released. Friends and acquaintances who were there munching down e's of unknown origin back in early 2000s suddenly had a different stance about putting something "unknown" in them.
Pre pandemic i know one real life antivaxxer. Vut even then, kinda not really, he did vaccinate his kids, but he didn't like that he was forced too for school. Some real "don't tell me what to do, because i was gonna do it anyway" energy. To me antivaxxers were just the butt of online jokes.
Post pandemic, i could name so many antivaxxers, it's insane. And they all have the dumbest takes imaginable. And they always try to convince you, but i never thought for a second that this person might be onto something. The last guy who talked to me about it was a friend of my dad. I know him for a ling time, but not well at all. He said that the pandemic was all planned, but not enough people died, so they have another one coming, and that's why he's not getting vaccinated. Wait, the government tries to kill people, it didn't work as well as they thought, but they also try to vaccinate people so they don't die? Why do they try to kill people?
And his aswer was basically: "many people believe that." Motherfucker, i know you, you hang out with 5 people who are 60 to 70 years old and they are all reclusive alcoholics. It doesn't really matter what they believe. -
Yeah, the only two antivaxxers I know (more did know) have fried their brains to mush with drugs so them believing that shit isn't surprising. I did lots of drugs in my 20s and knew a lot of people who did even more than me, and the two people who were always the "worst" with their use are the only ones I am aware of who are antivaxxers (In Sweden, it's not common here at all). They'd lick a literally turd if they saw someone sprinkle some unknown powder on it just for the chance of it making them high in any way, but they would fight to their death if anyone tried to vaccinate them specifically only with a covid vaccine.
I know a guy who did, still does and deals with every drug imaginable. Really nice guy, honestly. But he refused to get vaccinated, he bought a fake covid certificate or some shit for like 1000 bucks or whatever, because he didn't want that unknown substance in his body
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To be fair, how many anti-vaxx haters are vegan? And I am pro-vaccination. But also it would be nice if we could solve the whole pandemic problem a bit more completely, rather than slapping a band-aid on while sprinting for the next round.
Wait, what?
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This post did not contain any content.wrote on last edited by [email protected]
Antivax but do random shrooms/lsd/blow from strangers and buy their weed illegally
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Antivax but do random shrooms/lsd/blow from strangers and buy their weed illegally
but we dont know whats in those vaccines lol
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Thanks, I'll use that for my own knowledge!
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Sure or let her know. That's like cheese, yogurt, eggs, dark leafy greens (best source), or natto if she can handle it haha.
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Yikes, dawg.
The brain is the body. They aren't separate.
I brought up caloric excess in my other comment. I'm aware caloric excess causes weight gain simplisticly, but like I said, that is a simplistic take that ignores eveything else about the body and how people function as bodies. It's a great attitude if you have an eating disorder or want to punish people for being fat though while ignoring their vitamin needs.
Food cravings are physiological in nature. Why people even WANT to eat when they already know about calories is what matters.
Foods are made of vitamins, minerals, proteins, carbs, fats (which many are vitamins), and probably stuff I'm not thinking of. Plus we eat stuff like microplastics, dust in the air, lint, whatever incidental things. And then we also have a microbiome that interacts with all this, and that respond adaptively to pathogens, eg hydrogen peroxide producing bacteria, plus the pathogens themselves. We come into contact with pathogens a LOT, and most of the time our immune system just deals with it, it's not a big deal. Same with cancer actually.
There's stuff going on under the hood, is my point, and we don't know what our cellular buddies are dealing with and if they need more of a certain vitamin or not, they don't burden us with minutiae. We just think, "fuuuuck, a goat cheese hummus salad would slap right now," because biochemical pathways in our brain light up and we start feeling hunger.
Calories follow basic thermodynamics, yes, but your body is very complex. The goal isn't thin and malnourished and sick, the goal is usually healthy and fit and feeling good.
And if you’re burning more energy than you take in, your stores are going to deplete
This is what I mean by simplistic. You wave your hand and say your body is simply "burning energy," when it is actually an endlessly intricate bioelectrochemical dance between entire cities of unicellular life and tiny multicellular life (and some viruses) with whole lives of their own. It's crazy what happens inside us and how we adapt.
There is actually a lot of literature (like since before the 50s) on fat soluble vitamins and I linked some elsewhere itt for general reading on how it relates to insulin and Ozempic in simple terms. That you don't know that, that I know more than you, is obvious and you should probably stop externalizing. There's also tons of modern dieticians and nutritionists (with doctorates) who practice this exact philosophy, and indeed it is what our entire recommended daily intake is based on.
Supplements are made from food, especially the ones I listed. Go look at the ingredient labels. And people know they can get vitamins from food and can look that up, as that is common knowledge.
They don't HAVE to take a stranger's advice lmfao.
Again there's no safety issues with the supplements I was talking about. I'm aware of which supplements are more dangerous.
We didn't evolve to breathe car exhaust every day and we do, so maybe there are external oressure we have these days we didn'thave before. 0I think our bodies are very adaptable given the wide range of biomes (incl sun exposure/vitamin d availability) we occupy, and we might need some extra vitamins every now and then. Supplement or whole food, either way.
People overdose on selenium with brazil nuts pretty often, because it takes so few to overdose and they don't realize. Arctic explorers ate a ton of polar bear liver with 1,000,000 times recommended retinol in one bite, one died and the other's feet sloughed off and almost died. You yourself simply don't eat food sources that will kill you, because everything you eat is from a super market lol and safe. Some whole foods can kill with vitamin dosages and can vary widely in their dose. With supplements, you know the exact amounts and are somewhat less likely to "overdose" based on that alone. Plus, you can take vitamins individually/independently for a while and see how your body responds to know if that specific vitamin is helpful or not, then choose a whole food source once you understand what vitamins you need.
Drs say that because they don't want you to take retinol in excess or be careless with your doses. It's okay to take a normal daily dose. Some doctors have eating disorders and fat phobia too by the way, and those doctors tend to be pretty ignorant about fat soluble vitamins and nutrition itself. And again, vitamin k has no upper threshold at all. We inject it into newborns at pretty high doses and have since the 60s. You aren't going to get "toxic levels" of vitamin e or coq10 in your body either lol unless you deliberately megadose.
Ps liver and heart are good whole food sources of these vitamins
Pss laughable you criticize recommending vitamins when people here want to casually take Ozempic because their favorite anorexic celeb did it and looks great (on tv with filters and editing). And just shows your anger is misplaced
I've enjoyed reading this discussion. I would like to contribute that the most significant factor in excessive obesity isn't a typically a nutrient deficiency, or even a moral failing in CICO - it's carbohydrate addiction.
Yes, hunger can be driven by low-levels of essential nutrition, pica during pregnancy is a great example of that. Many people are over-fed and under-nourished, so when they get hungry they continue to go to their deficient food source (probably something carbohydrate heavy).
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You must be from Ontario.
I am indeed.
