They were always unjustifiable

He just wanted Israel to constantly edge the population into being genocided. Never quite reaching a full genocide.

Getting the hostages back?

I had written this in a different thread regarding the topic already. I think it is important to understand that these remain hollow words, unless there is actual real actions taken, something the German government continues to oppose.

Yeah, dont believe a word coming out of Merz mouth, unless there is actual actions.

The new coalition plans to treat Israel “like a NATO partner” in arms exports, effectively removing any oversight and any chance to appeal against arms exports used for war crimes.

They also want to make further financial contributions to UNRWA “dependent on extensive reforms”. Furthermore they want to remove funding from any scientific, cultural or education project that is deemed “hostile to Israel”.

In February Merz told Netanyahu he would find a way to have Netanyahu visit Germany without the arrest warrant by the ICC being executed. The only way to do that is to defy the ICC. Just two weeks ago the German president Steinmeier invited the Israeli president Herzog to Germany and subsequently visited Herzog and Netanyahu in Israel too. Aside from shaking hands with a wanted war criminal, Herzog also is known for genocidal statements against Palestinians.

Just last week Germany opposed the EU to reevaluate the association agreement with Israel on the basis that the agreement requires conforming to international law and human rights.

The reason why Merz is saying something now is because Germany is getting more and more isolated. However so far Germany wants to only talk, while giving Israel the weapons, money and diplomatic cover to finish its genocidal onslaught.

Just like Israel will not react to any words and only understand concrete pressure, Germany will not wane from the side of Israel unless forced to do so. German politics across the spectrum from the Greens on the center left to the AfD Fascists embrace support for Israel and try to shift the blame of antisemitism on Muslim (or perceived as such) immigrants, while quietly or loudly enjoying the mass slaughter of brown people.

Also note how he is saying

“Harming the civilian population to such an extent as has increasingly been the case in recent days, can no longer be justified as a fight against Hamas terrorism,”

Meaning all the extent before, including executions of medics, rape of prisoners and all the other atrocities are justified in the eyes of the German government.

He added he planned to hold a call with Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu this week to tell him “to not overdo it,”

So the destruction of almost all civillian infrastructure is acceptable. Displacing people dozens of times is acceptable. Starving people for 20 months is acceptable as long as it is done slowly…

I agree, getting the hostages back is essential to peace. I'm sure that was not the point you were trying to make, however.

Since 1967, between 750,000 and 1 million Palestinians have been arrested by Israel. As of October 2023, Israel held 5,200 Palestinian prisoners, including 170 children

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war_hostage_crisis

Hamas releases 80 Israeli hostages in exchange for the release of 240 prisoners during the weeklong ceasefire.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

They stopped being justified when they started bombing vital civil infrastructure. So basically an initial response and targeted bombing of Hamas would have been justified, but not indiscriminate bombing.

Many Israelis actually marched against the war plans right from the start, because they knew it wasn't about hostages.

Exactly! As soon as they started bombing everything and using safe zones to group up civilians to bomb them easier, I was done listening to anyone suggesting they were jUsT dEfEnDiNg ThEmSeLvEs. You don't bomb civilians and children and you don't bomb the places you've outlined as refugee safe zones, medical units, or journalists. Bunch of fucking monsters.

Took you a while...

Meh, let's see some action. Merz likes to talk a lot.

True. Tho this is not the kind of thing somebody would back out of. Not without some serious repercussion anyway.

Israel also applies systemic rape and torture to the 'prisoners,' many are arrested arbitrarily via administrative detention. This includes hundreds of children as well

Israel has also repeatedly stated that returning the hostages are secondary to 'eliminating Hamas' aka the full ethnic cleansing of Gaza. On the other hand, Hamas has proposed a full prisoner exchange and peace resolution since Oct 8th, along with agreeing to the UN proposal that passed

They couldn't be justified in the fucking first place. Some of us were smart enough to figure that out on day 1. What the fuck do these morons even get paid for?

How incredibly cruel must things be for a German leader to dare criticize Israel? I know it's a lukewarm criticism and has no real repercussions, but still, I didn't think I'd ever see something like this

applies systemic rape and torture to the 'prisoners'

Is there a source for that?

Yes

Palestinians denied civil rights (HRW) including Military Court (B'TSelem)

Palestinian Prisoners in Israel (wiki)

Children are jailed and abused in Israeli prisons (Save The Children)

Stripped, beaten and blindfolded: new research reveals ongoing violence and abuse of Palestinian children detained by Israeli military - (Save The Children)

Torture and Abuse in Interrogations (B'TSelem)

Thousands of Palestinians are held without charge under Israeli detention policy (NPR)

Urgently investigate inhumane treatment and enforced disappearance of Palestinians detainees from Gaza (Amnesty)

Shocking testimony: Torture in Israeli prisons, “sexual assaults even using dogs"

Why raping Palestinians is legitimate Israeli military practice

'Everything is legitimate’: Israeli leaders defend soldiers accused of rape

Extent of systematic torture, atrocities endured by Palestinians in Israeli prisons is shocking

Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests (Amnesty)

UN Report Details Vast, Systemic Torture of Palestinians in Israeli Detention

“Welcome to Hell” is a report on the abuse and inhuman treatment of Palestinians held in Israeli custody since 7 October 2023. B’Tselem collected testimonies from 55 Palestinians held during that time and released, almost all with no charges. Their testimonies reveal the outcomes of the rushed transformation of more than a dozen Israeli prison facilities, military and civilian, into a network of camps dedicated to the abuse of inmates as a matter of policy. Facilities in which every inmate is deliberately subjected to harsh, relentless pain and suffering operate as de-facto torture camps.

B'TSelem Welcome to Hell

Who cares? And what part of the Israeli government’s actions tells you they care at all whether their hostages live or die?

Thanks. So, to me, from the sources you linked, it seems "systemic abuses/torture" is justifiable claim. "Systemic rape" seems like a claim that might be over the line — even as raping prisoners is apparently accepted among certain strata of Israeli society. /f

Did you really just make that claim without going though the actual reporting? That's absolutely disgusting. Even the majority of children detained and held in these torture prisons experience sexual assault.

They spoke with B’Tselem after they were released
from detention, the overwhelming majority of them without being tried. Their
testimonies uncover a systemic, institutional policy focused on the continual
abuse and torture of all Palestinian prisoners. This includes frequent acts of
severe, arbitrary violence; sexual assault; humiliation and degradation; deliberate
starvation; forced unhygienic conditions; sleep deprivation; prohibition on,
and punitive measures for, religious worship; confiscation of all communal
and personal belongings; and denial of adequate medical treatment.

Various testimonies revealed repeated use of sexual violence, in varying degrees of
severity, by soldiers or prison guards against Palestinian detainees as an additional
punitive measure. The witnesses described blows to the genitals and other body
parts of naked prisoners; the use of metal tools and batons to cause genital pain;the photographing of naked prisoners; penises being grabbed; and strip-searches
for the sake of humiliation and degradation. The testimonies also reveal cases
of gang sexual violence and assault committed by a group of prison guards or
soldiers. One particularly grave testimony, quoted at length below, reports the
attempted anal rape of a Palestinian detainee by several prison guards. Similar
incidents were mentioned in other testimonies.

• BT'Selem Welcome to Hell

In addition to being crimes against humanity and full-fledged war crimes, the crimes committed by the Israeli occupation army and other Israeli security forces against Palestinian prisoners and detainees from the Gaza Strip also amount to acts of genocide against the Palestinian people in the Strip, because they are carried out in a systematic and brutal manner. These acts include the killing of Palestinians and the infliction of severe physical and psychological harm, including torture, other forms of ill-treatment, and sexual violence, including rape, and are carried out with the goal of eradicating the Palestinian people as a whole.

• Euro-Med Monitor

The video of the alleged gang rape at Sde Teiman is the latest piece in a growing body of evidence of abuse, sexual assault and the systematic withholding of food and medical care that Palestinians endure within the Israeli prison system

“The conditions at Sde Teiman aren’t unique. They’re just the tip of the iceberg,” the organisation’s spokesperson, Shai Parnes, told Al Jazeera by phone from Jerusalem

"We heard similar accounts of sexual abuse, starvation and assault from separate prisoners held in 16 different locations across Israel. It was depressing. As we gathered the testimonies, we realised that every witness account was almost identical, no matter what their age, gender or location was. There’s no doubt. This kind of abuse is systematic,” he said

• Al Jazeera

On June 27, the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor said that the Israeli army’s use of police dogs to attack Palestinian civilians during its military operations in the Gaza Strip, in addition to their use to terrorize, maul and rape prisoners and detainees in Israeli detention centers, is “a systematic and widely practiced behavior"

• IsraelPalestineNews

Save the Children’s new consultation showed that:

During arrest, 42% of children were injured, including gunshot wounds and broken bones, and 65% of children were arrested during the night, mostly between midnight and dawn. Half of all arrests took place in the children’s home.

The majority of children experienced appalling levels of physical and emotional abuse, including being beaten (86%), being threatened with harm (70%), and hit with sticks or guns (60%).

Some children reported violence and abuse of a sexual nature, including being hit or touched on the genitals and 69% reported being strip searched.

60% of children experienced solitary confinement with the length of time varying from one 1 day to as long as 48 days.

Children were denied access to basic services, 70% said they suffered from hunger and 68% said they didn’t receive any healthcare.

• Save The Children https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2023/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-of-palestinian-children-detained-by-israeli-military