Can you please help me clear some doubts regarding LGBTQIA stuff?
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the amount of people I’ve seen hating on the special pronouns and getting more right wing really made this a topic that doesn’t do what you think it does. I think it’s harmful.
those people are going to hate no matter what. pronouns aren't driving them mad, they're already nutbags.
Nah
People get influenced all the time to change their opinions and attitudes
I think that the pronouns thing from a few years back did a lot of damage and pushed a lot of people to more right wing ideas. It's stupid, of course, it's an annoyance at best, but it has helpt right wing talking heads to have easy material to lure unsuspecting viewers in
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Nah
People get influenced all the time to change their opinions and attitudes
I think that the pronouns thing from a few years back did a lot of damage and pushed a lot of people to more right wing ideas. It's stupid, of course, it's an annoyance at best, but it has helpt right wing talking heads to have easy material to lure unsuspecting viewers in
wrote on last edited by [email protected]People get influenced all the time to change their opinions and attitudes
lol, where do you see this? I see the conservatives sticking to their stupidity through thick and thin. and even when the leopards eat their faces, they're aghast that the leopards shouldn't be eating THEIR faces.
'did a lot of damage' - no it didn't. it upset people who were already upset about gays getting to live in society, get married and not have their heads bashed in by chuds every week.
Nah, get fucked with that. haters gonna hate. they aren't going to wake up one day and turn to hate suddenly, because someone used a pronoun.
These fucks were assholes already.
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Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what are neopronoums?
I do know the classic she, he. And the new gender neutral "they". Are there more that are starting to be used recently that I don't know about?
It is an incredibly niche part of the gender nonconformity movement in that some nonbinary individuals don't want to use the neutral "they", and instead want unique pronouns such as "xi/xir" or some such.
I personally don't agree with it. I'll just continue to use the singular "they", as it is gender neutral and works independently of where the individual being referred to sits on the gender spectrum, or use their name, as it is already the unique designation to refer to the specific individual.
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Okay, to avoid confusion maybe I should use the same term you used, which is sexual preference, and not sexual orientation. This is what I'm talking about (from your OP):
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
The only one who talks about this in the linked comment chain is the other person, and only tangentially.
So, again I suppose, in which way do you think this is part of gender?
that was not the part of chain i wanted to refer to. Essentially, my native tongue (or culture in which I was raised), there is (was) no difference between sex and gender, as in, there were not separate concepts. What you guys would call a gender (and this is also partly based on interaction in this chain, where I even ask what does being a male even mean) - users preference of pronoun, or attire, etc is what I called orientation in my op (again, I also said in op that I do not know if that is correct term for it, and it was not).
the paragraph you have highlighted was the only part where I refered sex as sex (the one associated with your partner/s). Other than that paragraph, I mostly (I am guessing here, again, for me concept of gender is new and still fuzzy) meant gender.
I would apologise again for mmy lack of knowledge on this stuff, and this post has helped me understand gender better.
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TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?
I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person's identity.
Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a "different gender". I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.
And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.
Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.
My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my "attire" says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a "personal" conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what "orientation" (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some "positive discrimination" (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr
I don't think the weird pronouns or identities like "I'm a blue black dragon born in Azeroth" make any sense to me whatsoever but it takes me zero effort to use whatever the person prefers so even if it doesn't make sense to me I'd rather not go out of my way to make a person sad, especially someone who I have no idea what they're going through in their own lives. We all got our own shit and the world would be a better place if people could just not be assholes to each other about the little things.
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I don't think the weird pronouns or identities like "I'm a blue black dragon born in Azeroth" make any sense to me whatsoever but it takes me zero effort to use whatever the person prefers so even if it doesn't make sense to me I'd rather not go out of my way to make a person sad, especially someone who I have no idea what they're going through in their own lives. We all got our own shit and the world would be a better place if people could just not be assholes to each other about the little things.
We all got our own shit and the world would be a better place if people could just not be assholes to each other about the little things
If only everyone would get that. Thanks!
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TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?
I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person's identity.
Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a "different gender". I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.
And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.
Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.
My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my "attire" says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a "personal" conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what "orientation" (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some "positive discrimination" (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr
I don't usually like to use specific terms to define myself, but to me it's easier to say: "bisexual agender" than: "I don't actually fit into the gender roles nor identities, and I also like a lot of different people, but not always. Also I sometimes feel inclined to a gender, but never enough to say 'I'm that'". You know, like a TL;DR.
Also, I've known different types of people who need definitions and certain terms:
- People starting to explore their identities and want to know if there's someone somewhere that feels/understand the same.
- People that will invalidate feelings and will not believe things unless there's more people telling them that they exist (doesn't always work).
- I, because I'm lazy and specific terms save me some time when I don't want to explain the whole thing, but it's enough for others to look up.
I'm pretty sure there are more reasons, but you need to understand that external people will try to negate anything that's not "written down". And to add more context, there are some terms I haven't even seen in person or known, but whatever, I respect that. I hope categorizing is not needed in the future. Unfortunately, there's still backlash, hate and violence towards the community, with or without "weird" words, you can be targeted just because of your looks or your personality.
P.S.: some people may not need to specify their preference/identity, but that may be because theirs is seen as "normal", that's a whole other discussion.
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Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what are neopronoums?
I do know the classic she, he. And the new gender neutral "they". Are there more that are starting to be used recently that I don't know about?
Erm ackshually singular "they" is centuries old now
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I do think neopronouns can be confusing, but it takes literally no effort to use it.
If you really must not use it you can just use singular they, or the person's name.but it takes literally no effort to use it.
In written text form? Absolutely. It's easy to adjust sentences/correct details before hitting submit.
Verbal conversations? I don't think it's fair to say it takes no effort... maybe it's from ADHD, but simply using they/them reliably took an embarrassingly long amount of time. Neopronouns are a whole different challenge for my ADHD-autopilot'd mouth that's already struggling with forming coherent sentences.
Of course I'm not saying we shouldn't respect their preferences...I just wanted to add my perspective on the 'no effort' part.
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Firstly, I think you're conflating gender with sexual identity. Gender isn't covered by any of the LGBTQIA2+ initials; it's important (to some people) to inform someone of upon meeting them, because it usually relates to their preferred pronouns, and if someone appears outwardly male but prefers to be referred to as 'They' (or any other combination of gender + pronoun), that needs to be disclosed. You've probably never felt the need to do this because (as you state) you're male and you identify as male and your outward appearance is male, so I'm going to assume you've never had anyone misgender you, but not everyone is so lucky - or privileged, you might say.
But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
This is just how the English language works. Personally, I've never met anyone who got upset if someone used a gender neutral pronoun (though I understand those people do exist). If you want to make it easy on yourself, just use They/Them for everyone; English just happens to not be too well-equipped for this, and it can cause confusion in some contexts (singular vs. plural, or when trying to single a particular person out of a crowd). Some of the other pronouns that you've probably heard were an attempt to create a singular gender neutral pronoun but none have really stuck in wide use.
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information.
This is likely because you're ace. If you had a sexual interest in someone, you might be interested to know what gender they preferred.
I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender.
We don't. This is separate from gender. The only letters in the LGBTQIA2+ acronym that relates to gender is T, for Trans, and I for Intersex, but generally speaking trans people (who I've met, anyway) would prefer to just be known by their preferred gender in casual conversation, and intersex people don't typically advertise that, either (nor should they need to).
As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
You don't have to disclose sexual preference for either of those things, at least not where I'm from.
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
You say "Okay", and refer to them by their preferred pronoun; it's essentially the only reason it would come up in casual conversation. Again, there's nothing sexual about gender. Gender and sexual identity are completely separate.
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
Over time, the acronym has evolved to be inclusive of more groups. That's all there is to it. As an asexual person, you're represented by the A (or the +). I have only a few times ever seen a shorter acronym used to specifically exclude some groups, and that shit was shut down pretty quickly by other folks who heard it. If you say "LGBTQIA+", I highly doubt anyone will be offended or feel that you're excluding them. (The + is indeed a general addendum meant to include anyone who is part of the community and wasn't explicitly given a letter.)
Just a note, Intersex mostly refers to biological differences, and is not directly attatched to gender, although intersex people may be more likely to be assigned the wrong gender at birth.
(I am intersex and it is 1 AM so excuse me if this is a bit inaccurate)
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Just a note, Intersex mostly refers to biological differences, and is not directly attatched to gender, although intersex people may be more likely to be assigned the wrong gender at birth.
(I am intersex and it is 1 AM so excuse me if this is a bit inaccurate)
Maybe I should have been more specific; I was trying to convey that intersex people (along with trans folks) are the two groups in that acronym for whom gender identity might be closely tied to their 'letter' (due to the likelihood of being misgendered); I'll readily admit that it's not a topic I'm super familiar with, so, apologies if I've not explained it well!
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TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?
I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person's identity.
Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a "different gender". I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.
And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.
Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.
My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my "attire" says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a "personal" conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what "orientation" (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some "positive discrimination" (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr
The short of it is: western society has been pretending human behaviour is simple and easy to understand for ages, but can't anymore, and that's leading to a fight over how to think about it all.
Homosexuality was viewed as a choice. Gender was viewed as natural rather than cultural. Criminals were just evil. Addicts were just irresponsible. Etc. Etc. In the last century, the democratization of expression and the shift to individualism has shattered that illusion of homogeneous simplicity.
This combines with a primitive delusion of semantic authority (this word has a specific defined meaning, and it is the one in the dictionary/my head) so that people think the object is determined by it's descriptors rather than the descriptor is defined by its context. People hear a word (e.g. man) and assume all the common entailments are mandatorily part of the definition. (e.g. penis, taller and broader than average, likes to have sex with women, likes to hunt/fight/sport, wants to be a father and provider, insert other cultural signifier of masculinity here) So, when someone sees a word being applied to someone, but doesn't feel like the definition in their head matches, they feel it's wrong. (e.g. He likes men. That doesn't match my definition of 'man.' Could my understanding of the word 'man' be wrong? Of course not. They must be something else. 'You there, stop calling yourself a man. You're not.')
The current battle is a battle to define what the next concensus will be for the definition of various words. Traditionalists want to go back to a more familiar way of defining things. (e.g. It had a penis at birth? Man. And he better act like one.) And they are willing to happily ignore the preferences of people who don't feel like that definition matches theirs. Neogenderists (for lack of a better term) believe something is wrong with the gender concepts and want to change them, whether that means adding one neuter gender, adding 100 genders, limiting us to the traditional two genders but removing physical sex as a characteristic in favor of just the cultural elements/secondary characteristics, or seeking to abolish gender entirely. Some people are interested in making the language match people's self-conceptions, some are not.
And all of this is still in flux. Who knows which group will be most prominent in 10, 20, 30, 100, or 1000 years? We could have a time in the future where people will die to fight for the idea that there are exactly four genders, 'man,' 'woman,' 'human,' and 'steve,' differentiated mostly by hair color, with entailments regarding preferences for spicy foods, appropriate toenail length, and room temperature, and that the people who want to dye their hair are transchromists. We'd all like to believe humanity would have the wisdom to avoid it, but looking around doesn't inspire much hope.
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that was not the part of chain i wanted to refer to. Essentially, my native tongue (or culture in which I was raised), there is (was) no difference between sex and gender, as in, there were not separate concepts. What you guys would call a gender (and this is also partly based on interaction in this chain, where I even ask what does being a male even mean) - users preference of pronoun, or attire, etc is what I called orientation in my op (again, I also said in op that I do not know if that is correct term for it, and it was not).
the paragraph you have highlighted was the only part where I refered sex as sex (the one associated with your partner/s). Other than that paragraph, I mostly (I am guessing here, again, for me concept of gender is new and still fuzzy) meant gender.
I would apologise again for mmy lack of knowledge on this stuff, and this post has helped me understand gender better.
I'm a bit confused here. Sex and gender, in any language, refer to the equipment a person has (sex) and the way they present/identify (gender). It's possible that in your language or culture, these two are conflated as they often are.
Sexual orientation, in any part of the world, refers to who someone is attracted to. It has nothing to do with their equipment or what the person's gender is.
For example, a cis man (someone assigned male at birth who identifies as a man) can be attracted to men or he can be attracted to women (or both or any or none). The fact that that person likely has a penis and looks like a man doesn't affect who he likes.
While there are cultures that might make assumptions about how men should like women and women should like men, you do seem to understand that that's not how humans work, so therefore, you understand that someone identifying as a man or woman has nothing to do with who they like. You understand that gender =/= sexual attraction.
I guess I'm just unclear as to why you're saying that in your culture/language they're the same things, does your language assume that gay people do not exist? Do you use the exact same word for a man who likes women (eg a straight man) as you would for a woman who likes women (eg a lesbian)?
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I'm a bit confused here. Sex and gender, in any language, refer to the equipment a person has (sex) and the way they present/identify (gender). It's possible that in your language or culture, these two are conflated as they often are.
Sexual orientation, in any part of the world, refers to who someone is attracted to. It has nothing to do with their equipment or what the person's gender is.
For example, a cis man (someone assigned male at birth who identifies as a man) can be attracted to men or he can be attracted to women (or both or any or none). The fact that that person likely has a penis and looks like a man doesn't affect who he likes.
While there are cultures that might make assumptions about how men should like women and women should like men, you do seem to understand that that's not how humans work, so therefore, you understand that someone identifying as a man or woman has nothing to do with who they like. You understand that gender =/= sexual attraction.
I guess I'm just unclear as to why you're saying that in your culture/language they're the same things, does your language assume that gay people do not exist? Do you use the exact same word for a man who likes women (eg a straight man) as you would for a woman who likes women (eg a lesbian)?
does your language assume that gay people do not exist?
pretty much. Many old folks consider it as a disease or mental illness.
Do you use the exact same word for a man who likes women (eg a straight man) as you would for a woman who likes women (eg a lesbian)?
That was not a thing, and hence it never had a word/s. basically someone born with a male reproductive part was male, other is female, and that is about it. A male was (is) expected to marry a female (love or arranged(where family finds "suitable" partners, and the bride/groom have little idea of other)).
Things have changed a lot for better in past 2 decades, but much of the "older ways" still remain as "traditions".
I never confused sex and gender, as you describe them, as I said these do not exist as separate concepts in my natiive tounge. I used different words for them, which while not ideal, do convey the meaning. My questions were mostly regarding gendered pronouns, and having terms for different sexes (as in lgb of lgbt) or genders (t of lgbt), and why do even need terms for these, or why would one like to share it with others.
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TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?
I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person's identity.
Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a "different gender". I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.
And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.
Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.
My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my "attire" says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a "personal" conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what "orientation" (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some "positive discrimination" (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr
wrote on last edited by [email protected]I think in practice, most people who those terms would apply to don't really use them on a day to day basis. I'm probably both demisexual and demiromantic, but I've never consistently identified that way even though nothing really changed since I found out about the terms as a teenager. I think they're mostly useful if you're getting back into the dating scene (why it's more important to use them for me at the moment) or hanging out with people who end up also being on the aro/ace spectrums.
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does your language assume that gay people do not exist?
pretty much. Many old folks consider it as a disease or mental illness.
Do you use the exact same word for a man who likes women (eg a straight man) as you would for a woman who likes women (eg a lesbian)?
That was not a thing, and hence it never had a word/s. basically someone born with a male reproductive part was male, other is female, and that is about it. A male was (is) expected to marry a female (love or arranged(where family finds "suitable" partners, and the bride/groom have little idea of other)).
Things have changed a lot for better in past 2 decades, but much of the "older ways" still remain as "traditions".
I never confused sex and gender, as you describe them, as I said these do not exist as separate concepts in my natiive tounge. I used different words for them, which while not ideal, do convey the meaning. My questions were mostly regarding gendered pronouns, and having terms for different sexes (as in lgb of lgbt) or genders (t of lgbt), and why do even need terms for these, or why would one like to share it with others.
Okay, well I'm not sure what language you speak but that's interesting. I'd be curious to know what your native tongue is.
LGB refers to orientation. In English, the word "sex" does not mean this and I would recommend you do not use it in that context when trying to get your questions across. Orientation refers to the same thing as attraction, and neither of these terms exclusively have to do with sex (neither the act of sex or what gender someone was assigned at birth).
People use these terms and share them so they can find other people like them. At its base, it's important to know if someone might be attracted to people of the same gender for the sake of finding a partner, but it can also help for finding community and like-minded individuals and people will share it for those, among many other reasons.
People who are trans may choose to share this fact either for community building as mentioned above, or if they're finding a partner, it might be important for the partner to understand that the person may not have been assigned the same gender at birth than they are currently presenting as.
People share their pronouns so that others know how to refer to them. For example, for some people, it's very hurtful to be referred to as "she" instead of "he", so they will tell you that straight up. This doesn't necessarily have to do with being trans either - a cis woman who dresses masculine and might be perceived as a man might make it a point to tell you her pronouns.
Other people share their pronouns because they believe nobody should assume. If we all share our pronouns immediately, nobody has to make any assumptions.
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Okay, well I'm not sure what language you speak but that's interesting. I'd be curious to know what your native tongue is.
LGB refers to orientation. In English, the word "sex" does not mean this and I would recommend you do not use it in that context when trying to get your questions across. Orientation refers to the same thing as attraction, and neither of these terms exclusively have to do with sex (neither the act of sex or what gender someone was assigned at birth).
People use these terms and share them so they can find other people like them. At its base, it's important to know if someone might be attracted to people of the same gender for the sake of finding a partner, but it can also help for finding community and like-minded individuals and people will share it for those, among many other reasons.
People who are trans may choose to share this fact either for community building as mentioned above, or if they're finding a partner, it might be important for the partner to understand that the person may not have been assigned the same gender at birth than they are currently presenting as.
People share their pronouns so that others know how to refer to them. For example, for some people, it's very hurtful to be referred to as "she" instead of "he", so they will tell you that straight up. This doesn't necessarily have to do with being trans either - a cis woman who dresses masculine and might be perceived as a man might make it a point to tell you her pronouns.
Other people share their pronouns because they believe nobody should assume. If we all share our pronouns immediately, nobody has to make any assumptions.
I’d be curious to know what your native tongue is
I would not give you a specific language, but country is India
Orientation refers to the same thing as attraction
this is new to me. In my post I used orientation for what I assumed to be gender, but I had no idea it was also related to attraction.
I do understand both points of finding similar folks or possibly finding partners
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TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?
I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person's identity.
Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a "different gender". I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.
And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.
Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.
My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my "attire" says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a "personal" conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what "orientation" (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some "positive discrimination" (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr
Iam just going to add that they missed a great marketing opportunity by not naming it lgbtqAI
