What is your opinion on national pride / patriotism?
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I like it in an unintelligent sentimental way.
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Every single person on the planet just happened to be born in some particular place, and every place has some particular set of people who at some point drew some arbitrary lines and decreed that the area within the lines was a country and gave it a name.
The idea that happening to have been born within the confines of one arbitrary set of lines rather than another is something of which to be proud is blatantly stupid.
The philosophy behind that is that only individual choices matter.
What you're saying is logical, but only if you're on-board with an individualist worldview to start.
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My take is that patriotism is a corruption of the feeling of belonging we get from community.
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I don't attribute anthropomorphism to a country. Improve your environment(mental/physical/emotional), help others; systems of government can come and go.
Id rather be happy than loyal to a fault.
anthropomorphism /ăn″thrə-pə-môr′fĭz″əm/
noun
Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena.
The representation of the Deity, or of a polytheistic deity, under a human form, or with human attributes and affections.
The ascription of human characteristics to things not human.
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It's a coping mechanism that gives people who achieved nothing in their life something to brag about
Some of my life-achievements involved contributing to my nation.
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I quite like regionalism that doesn't align with national borders. An example would be "limburgers" have a strong shared identity, even as parts of it lie in Belgium, and parts of it lie in the Netherlands.
Fundamentally it comes down to this question, I think: people tend to like to be around people that've shared a same background, is that ok? And to what degree?
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I quite like regionalism that doesn't align with national borders. An example would be "limburgers" have a strong shared identity, even as parts of it lie in Belgium, and parts of it lie in the Netherlands.
Fundamentally it comes down to this question, I think: people tend to like to be around people that've shared a same background, is that ok? And to what degree?
people tend to like to be around people that’ve shared a same background, is that’s ok? And to what degree?
There's different ways of liking people: you don't like your mam the same way you like your friends, and you don't like your funny friend the same way you like your lover.
I have some pretty obscure interests, and the small group of local people who share my interests are from diverse backgrounds (but homogeneous in interests). Different ways of 'liking'. Shared background is one.
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I have no idea who Doug Stanhope is but I like this quote:
Nationalism does nothing but teach you to hate people you never met, and to take pride in accomplishments you had no part in.
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My question to hardcore patriots: Why the hell are you so hyped over a place? Especially a place that is governed like dogshit?
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Das ist verboten
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I tend to agree with Schopenhauer(other than it sounding quite arrogant/condescending the way he puts it…):
The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.
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To all the people just reposting famous quotes: congrats you misunderstood the lesson: think for yourself more please
Nationalism is tribalism in the modern day, and is just as destructive and irrational
Vicarious pride in achievements one never participated in, like sports teams but a lot deadlier
It has split families, forced neighbor to kill neighbor, collapsed nations and serves no purpose in the modern world and the ones that shout it loudest are the worst dangers to world peace
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I quite like regionalism that doesn't align with national borders. An example would be "limburgers" have a strong shared identity, even as parts of it lie in Belgium, and parts of it lie in the Netherlands.
Fundamentally it comes down to this question, I think: people tend to like to be around people that've shared a same background, is that ok? And to what degree?
Tribalism is tribalism whether or not they reach national borders
The only reason you think they are 'cute' is that they don't have military power
Give the Limburgers a military that can compete on the world stage and in a few years they would be just the same as any other nationalist power
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Does it count as patriotism if you think your country kind of sucks and want to improve it? I suppose many rightwingers are convinced that they are doing exactly that, if only it were actually true ...
No, that's just having a strong sense of community
The difference is you aren't blinded to the flaws that need to be fixed
A 'patriot' will insist that American is the perfectbest and awesome and has zero flaws and if you insist there are flaws then you must be a damn communist and it is their moral duty to oppose everything you suggest for change
And it's fucking our country so bad that we won't be a world power in 20 years
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That's exactly why I'm asking. What patriotism is or should be, I can't answer, but I can say that what the self-proclaimed patriots in America are doing atm seems to me like the opposite of what this this strange concept should be about, because they are helping to cement an oligarchy - and that can't be in the interests of US citizens.
Edit: Just to be clear: If you are a US citizen and disagree with the administration's policies, I would consider you a patriot – but I am probably the worst person to ask about this.
in America at least the right wing can't create so they co-opt the meanings of others
'Patriot' used to have a positive connotation, say before the 1950s
Conservatives changed that by committing mountains of morally corrupt actions under the name of 'Patriotism', and used it as a weapon to silence and jail their political opposition during McCarthyism
Nowadays people who are actually concerned about the political direction of our country generally do not appreciate the label 'patriot' for what the conservatives have used it for
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It's hard to comment on the flavors of national pride in nations other than the one I live in, but I think if you're an American patriot, you either 1) are proud of horrendous, immoral things, 2) are proud of a mythologized nation-state that stands for liberty and justice which never actually existed.
all patriotism is tribalism: i.e. undeserved vicarious pride in accomplishments one had no part in achieving
Like sports clubs, but deadlier
And they are all based on lies because every nation was founded in a bloodbath
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My take is that patriotism is a corruption of the feeling of belonging we get from community.
It's not a 'corruption', it's just tribalism in the modern day
For an example of the corruption of the feeling of community, that would be politicians milking their base for donations by stirring up community fear: i.e. MS13 is going to rape your pets, send me money to be tougher on immigration
But just patriotism is what happens when humans live in groups larger than a hundred or so
It's also really dangerous in itself, even without intentional corruption and abuse
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The philosophy behind that is that only individual choices matter.
What you're saying is logical, but only if you're on-board with an individualist worldview to start.
ridiculous and unproductive navel gazing, the basic unit of human consciousness is the individual
If we were a hivemind species your vapid dilletance might be valid but I really don't see a purpose in theoretical psychology.
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It's a coping mechanism that gives people who achieved nothing in their life something to brag about
Fucking thank you, this is so much more concise than what I wrote and encapsulates it fully
like sports clubs but a bit deadlier
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Some of my life-achievements involved contributing to my nation.
Ok, good, that's you, a productive citizen following the social contract
BUT
Most people who wear the flag and shout that they are patriots have been nothing but leeches on the nation
