What is your opinion on national pride / patriotism?
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To all the people just reposting famous quotes: congrats you misunderstood the lesson: think for yourself more please
Nationalism is tribalism in the modern day, and is just as destructive and irrational
Vicarious pride in achievements one never participated in, like sports teams but a lot deadlier
It has split families, forced neighbor to kill neighbor, collapsed nations and serves no purpose in the modern world and the ones that shout it loudest are the worst dangers to world peace
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I quite like regionalism that doesn't align with national borders. An example would be "limburgers" have a strong shared identity, even as parts of it lie in Belgium, and parts of it lie in the Netherlands.
Fundamentally it comes down to this question, I think: people tend to like to be around people that've shared a same background, is that ok? And to what degree?
Tribalism is tribalism whether or not they reach national borders
The only reason you think they are 'cute' is that they don't have military power
Give the Limburgers a military that can compete on the world stage and in a few years they would be just the same as any other nationalist power
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Does it count as patriotism if you think your country kind of sucks and want to improve it? I suppose many rightwingers are convinced that they are doing exactly that, if only it were actually true ...
No, that's just having a strong sense of community
The difference is you aren't blinded to the flaws that need to be fixed
A 'patriot' will insist that American is the perfectbest and awesome and has zero flaws and if you insist there are flaws then you must be a damn communist and it is their moral duty to oppose everything you suggest for change
And it's fucking our country so bad that we won't be a world power in 20 years
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That's exactly why I'm asking. What patriotism is or should be, I can't answer, but I can say that what the self-proclaimed patriots in America are doing atm seems to me like the opposite of what this this strange concept should be about, because they are helping to cement an oligarchy - and that can't be in the interests of US citizens.
Edit: Just to be clear: If you are a US citizen and disagree with the administration's policies, I would consider you a patriot – but I am probably the worst person to ask about this.
in America at least the right wing can't create so they co-opt the meanings of others
'Patriot' used to have a positive connotation, say before the 1950s
Conservatives changed that by committing mountains of morally corrupt actions under the name of 'Patriotism', and used it as a weapon to silence and jail their political opposition during McCarthyism
Nowadays people who are actually concerned about the political direction of our country generally do not appreciate the label 'patriot' for what the conservatives have used it for
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It's hard to comment on the flavors of national pride in nations other than the one I live in, but I think if you're an American patriot, you either 1) are proud of horrendous, immoral things, 2) are proud of a mythologized nation-state that stands for liberty and justice which never actually existed.
all patriotism is tribalism: i.e. undeserved vicarious pride in accomplishments one had no part in achieving
Like sports clubs, but deadlier
And they are all based on lies because every nation was founded in a bloodbath
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My take is that patriotism is a corruption of the feeling of belonging we get from community.
It's not a 'corruption', it's just tribalism in the modern day
For an example of the corruption of the feeling of community, that would be politicians milking their base for donations by stirring up community fear: i.e. MS13 is going to rape your pets, send me money to be tougher on immigration
But just patriotism is what happens when humans live in groups larger than a hundred or so
It's also really dangerous in itself, even without intentional corruption and abuse
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The philosophy behind that is that only individual choices matter.
What you're saying is logical, but only if you're on-board with an individualist worldview to start.
ridiculous and unproductive navel gazing, the basic unit of human consciousness is the individual
If we were a hivemind species your vapid dilletance might be valid but I really don't see a purpose in theoretical psychology.
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It's a coping mechanism that gives people who achieved nothing in their life something to brag about
Fucking thank you, this is so much more concise than what I wrote and encapsulates it fully
like sports clubs but a bit deadlier
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Some of my life-achievements involved contributing to my nation.
Ok, good, that's you, a productive citizen following the social contract
BUT
Most people who wear the flag and shout that they are patriots have been nothing but leeches on the nation
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I have some national pride, usually about small things that I know my country cares overly much about and some cultural quirks I care about (how to serve coffee, the structure of a conversation, obscure literary references and so on).
I have some patriotism, as in: I want my country to be the best version of itself it can be. Keeping the good parts (not many) and evolving the rest.
Then, I am very cynical, so the little patriotism is submerge by a distant distaste and expectation of everything to fuck up.
(European here)
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It can be a useful political tool in the imperial periphery when used correctly. In the imperial core it is a tool of oppression.
Hate to break it to you buddy but those pithy words were created before militaries could deploy anywhere worldwide within nine hours
EVERYTHING is periphery nowadays, I figured 9/11 clued everyone in on that
And it's still a tool of oppression
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ridiculous and unproductive navel gazing, the basic unit of human consciousness is the individual
If we were a hivemind species your vapid dilletance might be valid but I really don't see a purpose in theoretical psychology.
indubitably
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Tribalism is tribalism whether or not they reach national borders
The only reason you think they are 'cute' is that they don't have military power
Give the Limburgers a military that can compete on the world stage and in a few years they would be just the same as any other nationalist power
Every tribe gains military power when I'm a member.
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I was raised around a lot of "patriotism" (closet nationalism) and have had to adapt the feeling now that I understand better what America actually is and has been. I found that trying to abandon the feeling altogether was making me feel cynical and alone. The parts of America that I love in fact tend to exist despite our government and dominant culture, which steals and appropriates the things I love about us and turns them into the things people know about us and dislike for good reason. I love the source materials, not the end result. As a white person born into privilege on stolen land, my existence is not entirely apart from this, but all's I can do with that is try to make something better of it.
There's a salt-of-the-earth working-class segment of this country that's getting screwed over, knows how and why they and others are getting screwed over, and has learned to survive together in spite of it. People that make families out of communities. Rail hoppers, union organizers, queer punks, the list goes on. That spirit is not unique to this country but there do exist uniquely American forms of it. I'm more proud of these people than words can express, and that's about as close to patriotic as I can feel these days.
Maybe I just like seeing our shitty protestant labor worship turned to something more productive. Maybe I just spent too much time in the mountains to not fall in love with the land itself. Or maybe I just love banjos.
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Hate to break it to you buddy but those pithy words were created before militaries could deploy anywhere worldwide within nine hours
EVERYTHING is periphery nowadays, I figured 9/11 clued everyone in on that
And it's still a tool of oppression
The US is not an imperial periphery. Being attacked doesn't make you periphery. Idk where you got that idea. These terms are primarily in regard to economic relations
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Patriotism. It’s the food of the wise man but the liquor of the fool.
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I tend to agree with Schopenhauer(other than it sounding quite arrogant/condescending the way he puts it…):
The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.
Suffers from the same individualism as some other comments.
Most people know how to be proud of things outside their small self. It's only that Protestant individualist mindset that denies the reality of the collective, and with it collective pride.
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The philosophy behind that is that only individual choices matter.
What you're saying is logical, but only if you're on-board with an individualist worldview to start.
You can be proud of your community and others you identify with without putting that pride on arbitrary bounds of organization regardless of how the organization is ran.
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The US is not an imperial periphery. Being attacked doesn't make you periphery. Idk where you got that idea. These terms are primarily in regard to economic relations
No, it is armchair wiki scholar talk ripped from the Romans like some freaking 40k fanboy.
It's not even a good comparison as an economic metaphor as in modern markets there is no geographical center
Just face it, you wanted to sound wise and it fell flat so now you're moving the goalposts. Fucking typical
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indubitably
Is that literally all you can bring? I thought we were having a discussion here...
