So proud!
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It would be cool if we could keep sexism off lemmy. This isn't reddit.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Mansplaining ord is sexism itself. Agree with you we should discourage such things
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The point I was making was that a person can be a participant in the racism, while their personal intentions are not. Their personal intentions do not mean that what they are participating isn't racist, and that is what the paper says, and what you said it said.
Why must you know from random people online, rather than experts? Is it because you can argue against people who are not experts, while not so much with people bringing the data? Are you just lazy? Is that it? You can't be fucked to read anything that isn't as small, and surface level, as a forum comment section? Why require me, someone who does not have professional expertise in a subject, to be the person who gives you answers on that subject, rather than the people who have that? There is no better way to get answers than from the people who spend their lives specifically working to understand it, why be so adamant laymen answer you? What is it that makes you desire some rando answer these questions for you when the experts' publications on the subject are right there?
wrote last edited by [email protected]Sure and you're still a racist if you drop hard r's based on your perception of someone, it's a fun and easy easy to tell who's a racist and who simply exists in a racist system.
Experts agree it's specifically a perjorative sexist term, this weird definition that says it's in some crazy way not sexist only seems to exist on the Internet likely because it's very difficult to argue in earnest that the obviously sexist thing you just said isn't sexist.
Even the sources provided call it pejorative which I dunno if you know means it's specifically a slur.
Why require me, someone who does not have professional expertise in a subject, to be the person who gives you answers on that subject, rather than the people who have that?
No one said you specifically, you fucking volunteered so drop the crybaby victim bullshit and answer either of the two questions both of you keep dodging.
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So many likes under this toxic shit post, though comments section is full of people with valid conclusions
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Sure and you're still a racist if you drop hard r's based on your perception of someone, it's a fun and easy easy to tell who's a racist and who simply exists in a racist system.
Experts agree it's specifically a perjorative sexist term, this weird definition that says it's in some crazy way not sexist only seems to exist on the Internet likely because it's very difficult to argue in earnest that the obviously sexist thing you just said isn't sexist.
Even the sources provided call it pejorative which I dunno if you know means it's specifically a slur.
Why require me, someone who does not have professional expertise in a subject, to be the person who gives you answers on that subject, rather than the people who have that?
No one said you specifically, you fucking volunteered so drop the crybaby victim bullshit and answer either of the two questions both of you keep dodging.
Pejorative means it shows disapproval, if I say a term that means anything negative about something, or someone it is a pejorative. If someone throw a fit about something, and I call them childish, that is a pejorative, it is not being used as a slur, it means I disapprove of your choice of action. If that person is a man and I call them a man-baby, that is not me being sexist, it means you are a man, who is acting like a baby. Saying something that means I disapprove of your behavior is absolutely not the same as saying something that means I disapprove of how someone was born. That is the difference between the term mansplaining, and the n word. One is a judgement of actions, one is a judgment of inherent qualities.
I am not saying you are victimizing me by doing this, that is a stupid conclusion to come to. I am asking why you are insisting on asking random people online for answers, when the expert opinions on the subject are right there for you? Why must you get this from people online when you can get high quality answers with a search. If you think asking you why you insist on getting answers from non-experts, when the expert answers are at your finger tips, is being a crybaby (a pejorative BTW, so did you just call me a slur?), or calling myself a victim, I guess that makes you the same for insisting others answer your questions. I refer to myself because, when I pointed you towards the better source for answers, you insisted on an answer from me instead.
Why do you want random people online to give you answers when much higher quality information is available with little extra work?
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For what it's worth, although it seems like a tangent, I do think that's what was originally meant in the comment that started this chain and I was trying to help. I agree that people are using it with its intended meaning (but could be making an error in judgement).
Yeah, I don't see why that's such a difficult concept to grasp. I suppose maybe they believe their interpretation of scenarios is always the objectively correct one and also incredibly obvious so anyone with a different interpretation is wrong? Unsurprisingly, that's a pretty condescending way to view the world. They seemed to want to twist my words to make what I was saying into something about "snap judgements".
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I really appreciate this perspective and it really does shine light on how one is raised based on their gender. I can think of a multitude of examples from your perspective and also from who you are responding to.
I'm absolutely positive that, regardless of how hard I tried not to, I did raise my son and daughter differently. All I hope is that I did a little better than my parents did for me and my brothers and, should they have kids themselves, my children do a little better than I did, and so on and so forth.
Today is not that day but maybe when I'm dust, society will slowly limp along and evolve. Conversations like this may seem divisive now but I think they're needed in the grand scheme of things.
Some humans in the future might wake up in a better world because of people like you. Keep it up!
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I think that's how most people are. They don't identify as sexist, but they do sexist things because of conditioning. No one ever thinks they're a bad person, best we can do is try to be aware of our bullshit and keep learning.
No one ever thinks they're a bad person
Well, there are people who do identify as sexists. Hell, the latest Jubilee episode shows that there are people identifying as fascists. All I wanted to say is that I do not believe that men and women have fundamentally different capabilities.
Nevertheless, I do sexist things and it's disgusting and I have little to no control over it. Hopefully I will grow to control it
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How many women are? They have been notoriously under diagnosed, so what? We still have to live and adapt to this world, regardless.
I got my autism diagnoses at 39 years of age. Not that it does any good besides validating many of my lived experiences.
Consider how many women are ND and have been forced fed the notion that we must sit down, shut up, focus, stay on task, do our duties, be strong women, never rock the boat, never be weird, keep a clean home, raise our children right, get paired with the ND boys in class who do actually get diagnosed so as to keep them on task, understand that boys will be boys ad nauseum.
If I could adapt without any sympathy others can, too, man or woman. Communication is practiced. It must be nurtured from a young age regardless of any roadblocks you're born with or born to.
What I noticed was that most of my best friends were diagnosed. We clicked not only because we were similar but also because my teachers paired me with them and it brought us closer for it. Meanwhile, I struggled in school myself. I also had to hold the hands of my friends and be their keepers. It makes me upset that they had extra help while more responsibility was foisted on me when I needed help myself and never got it.
How am I a bartender who can absolutely relate to what she is saying and how he responded while still, also, being ND myself? Is it any wonder I never went into secondary schooling with the experience I had from grade school to highschool?
One of my patrons is so much further on the spectrum than I and I would never condescend to her while she is speaking about anything. I'm truly happy to hear about anything she has to talk about.
But if someone, man or woman, comes into my establishment and spoke to me in the same vein he is, I'd respond the same way she did because that response is something I learned to adapt to my surroundings regardless of a diagnosis.
He fell right into a trap she set and he did it all by himself by typing it out and hitting send. If he's eloquent enough to respond the way he did, he's deserving of the answer he got. There is no excuse here that would make me forgive his response.
If you're going to use your diagnosis as a crutch, be off with you. You can disagree, but not anywhere in this little text post is there any indication that he even is NB in the first place.
What she was saying is something that women struggle with NB or not. Men also have their own struggles. Both are valid and there's no reason to be defensive about her response unless you're guilty of doing it yourself. But then you're just projecting.
Uhhhh, this post was about mansplaining....
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Luckily I never do mansplaining because I don’t understand how anything works.
Women often complain that when they go to home depot the workers always ask what project they are doing and walk them through how to do it instead of just pointing them to the product they are looking for.
Honestly I’d love nothing more than for a Home Depot worker to ask me about my project and walk me through how to do it. It would save me the inevitable return trip(s) to pick up that one part or tool I didn’t think about.
But I understand that it could be seen as condescending if you do know what you’re doing and just need help finding the thing you already know you need.
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Pejorative means it shows disapproval, if I say a term that means anything negative about something, or someone it is a pejorative. If someone throw a fit about something, and I call them childish, that is a pejorative, it is not being used as a slur, it means I disapprove of your choice of action. If that person is a man and I call them a man-baby, that is not me being sexist, it means you are a man, who is acting like a baby. Saying something that means I disapprove of your behavior is absolutely not the same as saying something that means I disapprove of how someone was born. That is the difference between the term mansplaining, and the n word. One is a judgement of actions, one is a judgment of inherent qualities.
I am not saying you are victimizing me by doing this, that is a stupid conclusion to come to. I am asking why you are insisting on asking random people online for answers, when the expert opinions on the subject are right there for you? Why must you get this from people online when you can get high quality answers with a search. If you think asking you why you insist on getting answers from non-experts, when the expert answers are at your finger tips, is being a crybaby (a pejorative BTW, so did you just call me a slur?), or calling myself a victim, I guess that makes you the same for insisting others answer your questions. I refer to myself because, when I pointed you towards the better source for answers, you insisted on an answer from me instead.
Why do you want random people online to give you answers when much higher quality information is available with little extra work?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pejorative
: a word or phrase that has negative connotations (see connotation sense 1) or that is intended to disparage or belittle : a pejorative word or phrase
It's sexist and so is man baby, you're needlessly gendering shit to make it othered.
You're literally crying about me doing this to you, just don't answer and moreover some come to me and cry like I'm making you participate.
Yeah, effort.. who needs that shit huh? The easy way is always the best way huh?
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pejorative
: a word or phrase that has negative connotations (see connotation sense 1) or that is intended to disparage or belittle : a pejorative word or phrase
It's sexist and so is man baby, you're needlessly gendering shit to make it othered.
You're literally crying about me doing this to you, just don't answer and moreover some come to me and cry like I'm making you participate.
Yeah, effort.. who needs that shit huh? The easy way is always the best way huh?
Asking you why you are asking me, when provided with professional sources is "literally crying about you doing this to me"? See, now you are doing exactly what I expressed in my first post on this. You are taking context clues and interpreting them to make a judgement call on me. This is what women who are being condescendingly explained things to them by men. Like some, you are misreading the person you are speaking to. I also notice the word slur isn't in that definition. Highlighting that stuff isn't the correction you might think it is, if I express a term to display my disapproval, it is demonstrating negative connotations, and belittling someone does not have inherent bigotry to it. If you are being condescending, you are belittling someone, so turn about is fair play. This is calling out your choice of actions. If I call a man, acting immaturely, a man-baby that is a statement about physical development, being grown, a man, vs a child, but they are acting in a way a child would. Same thing for woman-babies, or as they are more commonly known now, Karens, with Karen butting into other terms such as man-baby too. Mansplaining doesn't have centuries of intense persecution, torture, slavery, and many other awful things, things happening to this day, behind it. You are putting mansplaining on that level. Even if I agreed it was misandry, this would be a serious miss-equivocation.
"Yeah, effort… who needs that shit huh? The easy way is always the best way huh?"
Yes clearly, I provided the way to get professional answers about the subject you are asking for, that is the best way to get information, in this case. I can lead you to water, but can't make you drink. You seem to be thinking I should also scoop up the water, and pour it down your throat for you. I am asking why you think being given a means of answering your questions, from the best possible sources, is dodging your question, or why you would desire random assholes' takes on the subject, rather than professional ones. This makes no sense, unless you have some ulterior motive. You ask for answers, I provide a means to get the best ones that can be achieved in this context, you then insist randos on a forum answer instead.
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No one ever thinks they're a bad person
Well, there are people who do identify as sexists. Hell, the latest Jubilee episode shows that there are people identifying as fascists. All I wanted to say is that I do not believe that men and women have fundamentally different capabilities.
Nevertheless, I do sexist things and it's disgusting and I have little to no control over it. Hopefully I will grow to control it
Without getting into philosophy, people who call themselves fascists and sexists don't necessarily feel they're "bad" because of it.
Yes, I made a generalization, but this isn't a term paper and I don't have references.
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No. You're adding random shit that I never said and still avoiding two simple questions.
Wrong. I haven't added anything, just followed your reasoning.
Let's walk through it:
Scenario: A woman believes a man is being misogynistic towards her.
Your assessment: She can't actually know that he's intending to be misogynistic. Therefore she is making an assumption that it's based on sex/gender. By doing that, she is being bigoted/sexist/misandrous.
Based on your words:
That explanation requires prior knowledge or post hoc knowledge otherwise you’re simply saying it’s based on sex
requires someone to know the intent of the speaker which means they know them or they’re simply assuming
How do they “know” anymore then the man “knows” you aren’t aware of whatever it is they’re explaining?
They don’t, they assume, it’s just a bigoted assumption.
it makes them a bigot to simply assume shit based on sex
I've asked you to explain how this somehow doesn't follow, but all you can do is accuse me of being obtuse, or adding in random shit.
So again, the sound conclusion of your logic is: Any woman who believes a man is being misogynistic towards her is actually herself being prejudiced or discriminatory towards him.
As for this:
still avoiding two simple questions
I literally quoted them and responded directly to them in my previous response. What an absolutely pathetic attempt at gaslighting.
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I mean they aren't wrong, she's patronizing them with condescension they can't perceive because of their clear deficits.
I mean yes ADHD and Autism are clear deficits but you don't need to be a dick about it.
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Because you seem to have missed it:
It's describing something that is really happening.
There is a systemic bias that exists where men treat women this way. It's a problem that these women have to deal with. Trust in the experience of people who are actually in this situation instead of trying to invalidate them to feed your need to win arguments on the internet.
Just because something happens doesn't make it okay to generalize that behavior across an entire identity.
"Mansplaining" is a pretty mild example but we can look at other more extreme ones. One of the most classic is racists who love to say "Do you know 50% of crime is committed by 13% of the population?", and use that as justification to the idea that black people are inherently more likely to be criminals. And they may occasionally walk it back and try to say shit like "not you, you're one of the good ones".
Or it's like someone who feels as though they got taken advantage of in a business deal saying they got "jew'd". And then trying to say "well no I'm not antisemitic, but I've personally seen and heard of Jews conducting business unfairly. And it's common enough that the term has arisen, so it's gotta be somewhat true. And if you are a Jew who conducts business fairly then I'm not talking about you". If you encountered someone trying to say that, you would be quite correct to respond by saying "wow that's actually really fucking antisemitic". And this is the exact same thing you are trying to argue with the word "mansplaining".
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Wrong. I haven't added anything, just followed your reasoning.
Let's walk through it:
Scenario: A woman believes a man is being misogynistic towards her.
Your assessment: She can't actually know that he's intending to be misogynistic. Therefore she is making an assumption that it's based on sex/gender. By doing that, she is being bigoted/sexist/misandrous.
Based on your words:
That explanation requires prior knowledge or post hoc knowledge otherwise you’re simply saying it’s based on sex
requires someone to know the intent of the speaker which means they know them or they’re simply assuming
How do they “know” anymore then the man “knows” you aren’t aware of whatever it is they’re explaining?
They don’t, they assume, it’s just a bigoted assumption.
it makes them a bigot to simply assume shit based on sex
I've asked you to explain how this somehow doesn't follow, but all you can do is accuse me of being obtuse, or adding in random shit.
So again, the sound conclusion of your logic is: Any woman who believes a man is being misogynistic towards her is actually herself being prejudiced or discriminatory towards him.
As for this:
still avoiding two simple questions
I literally quoted them and responded directly to them in my previous response. What an absolutely pathetic attempt at gaslighting.
Correct.
They can't know intent they can assume, their assumption is sexist, the term used to describe it intentionally so. That's sexism.
Not any woman, if you know a dude and they're taking down to you and that's a pattern they're probably a misogynist. That said saying they're mansplaining is explicitly sexist, it's intended to be.
You did not.
Can I drop hard r's based on race and perception alone, my answer is sure but you're a racist.
Can you use a sexist term as an insult and not be a sexist? No, the same way I can't drop hard r's and that's ignoring the assumption of gender at all, what if they don't identify as a man or don't see you as a woman?
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This is the type of attitude that makes me not talk to humans. Sure I might know something about it but if I tell you then I am an asshole apparently. So....figure it out yourself.
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Asking you why you are asking me, when provided with professional sources is "literally crying about you doing this to me"? See, now you are doing exactly what I expressed in my first post on this. You are taking context clues and interpreting them to make a judgement call on me. This is what women who are being condescendingly explained things to them by men. Like some, you are misreading the person you are speaking to. I also notice the word slur isn't in that definition. Highlighting that stuff isn't the correction you might think it is, if I express a term to display my disapproval, it is demonstrating negative connotations, and belittling someone does not have inherent bigotry to it. If you are being condescending, you are belittling someone, so turn about is fair play. This is calling out your choice of actions. If I call a man, acting immaturely, a man-baby that is a statement about physical development, being grown, a man, vs a child, but they are acting in a way a child would. Same thing for woman-babies, or as they are more commonly known now, Karens, with Karen butting into other terms such as man-baby too. Mansplaining doesn't have centuries of intense persecution, torture, slavery, and many other awful things, things happening to this day, behind it. You are putting mansplaining on that level. Even if I agreed it was misandry, this would be a serious miss-equivocation.
"Yeah, effort… who needs that shit huh? The easy way is always the best way huh?"
Yes clearly, I provided the way to get professional answers about the subject you are asking for, that is the best way to get information, in this case. I can lead you to water, but can't make you drink. You seem to be thinking I should also scoop up the water, and pour it down your throat for you. I am asking why you think being given a means of answering your questions, from the best possible sources, is dodging your question, or why you would desire random assholes' takes on the subject, rather than professional ones. This makes no sense, unless you have some ulterior motive. You ask for answers, I provide a means to get the best ones that can be achieved in this context, you then insist randos on a forum answer instead.
I didn't ask you anything, I posed an open question you responded to and continue to respond to with walls of text largely about your indignation that I would respond. Similarly use a thesaurus the hard r is also pejorative term.
"woman-babies" gotcha so you're just a sexist because those are also specifically sexist terms.
Mansplaining doesn't have centuries of intense persecution, torture, slavery, and many other awful things, things happening to this day, behind it.You are putting mansplaining on that level. Even if I agreed it was misandry, this would be a serious miss-equivocation.
So nothing is offensive unless there's a history of bigoted use? similarly no one said they are the same but it is a sexist term and the person using it a sexist.
No one is asking for a professional, I'm asking people here that are comfortable using a sexist term why that is, no paper is going to tell me that.
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Correct.
They can't know intent they can assume, their assumption is sexist, the term used to describe it intentionally so. That's sexism.
Not any woman, if you know a dude and they're taking down to you and that's a pattern they're probably a misogynist. That said saying they're mansplaining is explicitly sexist, it's intended to be.
You did not.
Can I drop hard r's based on race and perception alone, my answer is sure but you're a racist.
Can you use a sexist term as an insult and not be a sexist? No, the same way I can't drop hard r's and that's ignoring the assumption of gender at all, what if they don't identify as a man or don't see you as a woman?
if you know a dude and they’re taking down to you and that’s a pattern they’re probably a misogynist.
Okay, so if the man is "probably" being misogynistic, that's enough that a woman can believe they are being misogynistic without herself being a bigot/sexist/misandrist?
You did not.
And yet, miraculously, I can produce this screenshot!
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This is the type of attitude that makes me not talk to humans. Sure I might know something about it but if I tell you then I am an asshole apparently. So....figure it out yourself.
In my experience, nobody has any problem with you sharing your knowledge with them if (1) you're an actual expert (and not just an "armchair expert", (2) they actually want or need someone to tell them the information they're looking for, and (3) you express it courteously and kindly.
In pretty much any case, you're not likely to ever get good results if #2 isn't true. Maybe they want to figure it out themselves. Maybe they don't actually care. Maybe they're making a joke that people who really are experts would get!
Even if you don't have #1, you can get a long way with #3 (especially if you frame it as you're a fellow learner sharing what you've gleaned so far, such as by giving them info and asking for something in return—"oh, I found out that you can do X and it works really well, but I could never figure out Y, how'd you do that?!").
