Other places bad isn’t really an excuse for us to suck as well
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Other places bad isn’t really an excuse for us to suck as well
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Other places bad isn’t really an excuse for us to suck as well
Not bad. Infinitely worse.
And truly. Having frontier control and regulations is not even bad.
Also, most Europeans are not racist. Your analysis on why Ukrainian refugees are treated differently than syrian refugees (for instance) is incredibly shallow. As people take in consideration a lot more things when judging a person, and attributing it to skin color is just to make yourself a nice strawman to attack.
It's perfectly valid to be able to have control on who you want to share your life with, as it will wildly influence your own life and well being.
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Not bad. Infinitely worse.
And truly. Having frontier control and regulations is not even bad.
Also, most Europeans are not racist. Your analysis on why Ukrainian refugees are treated differently than syrian refugees (for instance) is incredibly shallow. As people take in consideration a lot more things when judging a person, and attributing it to skin color is just to make yourself a nice strawman to attack.
It's perfectly valid to be able to have control on who you want to share your life with, as it will wildly influence your own life and well being.
I honestly made an argument using facts to back it up ,and your reaction so far has been whataboutism and deflection. I’m also not sure how exactly you would argue against this when most European countries have right wing (extremist) governments right now and do I really have to explain that a core feature of right wingers is to hate immigrants?
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I honestly made an argument using facts to back it up ,and your reaction so far has been whataboutism and deflection. I’m also not sure how exactly you would argue against this when most European countries have right wing (extremist) governments right now and do I really have to explain that a core feature of right wingers is to hate immigrants?
You facts:
-People racists because I said so.
The fact that you just said that MOST european countries have extremist right wing governments just said everything that needs to be said. And how you generalize to everyone who vote for any right or centrist party without even care for their reasons to do so...
Also systematic downvoting every comment of anyone not agreeing with you shows a specific character trait.There's nothing to argue here. That's my bad.
Have a good day.
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You facts:
-People racists because I said so.
The fact that you just said that MOST european countries have extremist right wing governments just said everything that needs to be said. And how you generalize to everyone who vote for any right or centrist party without even care for their reasons to do so...
Also systematic downvoting every comment of anyone not agreeing with you shows a specific character trait.There's nothing to argue here. That's my bad.
Have a good day.
Is the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies a bucket list for you?
If everything I’m saying is so obviously wrong it should be super easy to make a sound argument against mine instead of just trying to derail the discussion.
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Is the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies a bucket list for you?
If everything I’m saying is so obviously wrong it should be super easy to make a sound argument against mine instead of just trying to derail the discussion.
Is the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies a bucket list for you?
@[email protected] Ftr, the rules of this community specifically say not to do this. I am leaving this entire thread here, because I think @shaserlark did a great job -- but let me emphasize that institutionalized racism is not good and you rushing to defend it here is not good either.
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Is the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies a bucket list for you?
@[email protected] Ftr, the rules of this community specifically say not to do this. I am leaving this entire thread here, because I think @shaserlark did a great job -- but let me emphasize that institutionalized racism is not good and you rushing to defend it here is not good either.
I take you are a mod, my app doesn't show mods of communities for some reason.
Just a fair and square question. As you quote the fallacy thing.
And please be sincere. As it would be very important for my continuity in this community even in lemmy as a whole.
Why my supposed fallacies are being judged here but not his? He made fallacies also. Are the fallacies on the question or it's the opinion?
Can anything be debated here?
Because at no point I defended any kind of racism, not institutionalized not anything.
You clearly agree with the other part. Are you giving me heat because of that? If so please I need a list of what can be said exactly in this community.
Because I would defend in from of a judge with a cristaline conscience, that migration or border policies are not racism. And that I don't think the European Union have racist policies written in their law with the purpose of putting people down for their race. Quite the contrary I think the European Union have done wonders integrating races, and teaching everyone here not to be racist through incredible programs and policies with foreign countries (including the mentioned refugee programs) and forcing eu members to remove any racial law from their legislation.
If even that sentence cannot be debated here, please let me know. And put it more clear in the rules to which political party do you need to be affiliated to be allowed to post here.
Because calling the EPP or Renew Europe racist just because (and you say nothing about that) feels completely antieuropean. And I don't even vote for those parties, btw (I don't vote), but it hurts me very much when radicalization demonize normal people that may vote or belong to a party for whatever reason.
That's my two cents, from here do what you want to do.
Have a good day.
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I take you are a mod, my app doesn't show mods of communities for some reason.
Just a fair and square question. As you quote the fallacy thing.
And please be sincere. As it would be very important for my continuity in this community even in lemmy as a whole.
Why my supposed fallacies are being judged here but not his? He made fallacies also. Are the fallacies on the question or it's the opinion?
Can anything be debated here?
Because at no point I defended any kind of racism, not institutionalized not anything.
You clearly agree with the other part. Are you giving me heat because of that? If so please I need a list of what can be said exactly in this community.
Because I would defend in from of a judge with a cristaline conscience, that migration or border policies are not racism. And that I don't think the European Union have racist policies written in their law with the purpose of putting people down for their race. Quite the contrary I think the European Union have done wonders integrating races, and teaching everyone here not to be racist through incredible programs and policies with foreign countries (including the mentioned refugee programs) and forcing eu members to remove any racial law from their legislation.
If even that sentence cannot be debated here, please let me know. And put it more clear in the rules to which political party do you need to be affiliated to be allowed to post here.
Because calling the EPP or Renew Europe racist just because (and you say nothing about that) feels completely antieuropean. And I don't even vote for those parties, btw (I don't vote), but it hurts me very much when radicalization demonize normal people that may vote or belong to a party for whatever reason.
That's my two cents, from here do what you want to do.
Have a good day.
Why my supposed fallacies are being judged here but not his?
That's a fun use of supposed. When, in your very first reply, you started out with "I'm amazed to find out what's your opinion of any other place on earth." - what exactly is that if not a deflection/whataboutism?
In your third reply, when you subtly removed the parentheses around the word "extremism" and suggested that @shaserlark had said that *"most EU governments are right-wing extremist", even though what they said amounted to "most EU governments are right-wing, some are even right-wing extremists" (fact)? Was that an honest mistake?
He made fallacies also.
So their fallacies are real and don't deserve the label "supposed"?! Interesting.
Fwiw, I can't say that I noticed such a density of bad-faith patterns in @shaserlark's comments. But feel free to point them out.
Can anything be debated here?
Yes. However, there are rules. In particular, there are rules 2, 3, and 4. You know, provide facts, don't be a bigot, stuff like that.
I'm clearly against racism, I consider racism something terrible thus why I get offended when not racist people get accused of being racist.
So you'd be offended if someone called you racist and ... that is why you can't be racist? I am sure this tactic has a name; I really should read that h*cking Wikipedia page top to bottom at some point.
In any case, this is nowehere near a valid argument.Quite the contrary I think the European Union have done wonders integrating races
Fun bit: There are no human races, we're all the same race. Phenotypes are a terrible indicator of genome composition even; the genome difference between a white person and a black person may be much smaller than the difference between two white people.
When people talk about racism, what they actually mean is phenotype-based group-oriented enmity. The term "racism" is used because there are people who claim there may be human races (i.e. "racists") and not because that is actually true.
migration or border policies different from completely open borders are not racism
So, for one, no one says you need to have "completely open borders". It's just that the practices of Frontex are often very very far removed from treating humans with any dignity. Or in a way that helps European societies improve.
On that, you may want to look up what Frontex does (or just read @Shaserlark's comment, for a summary). You may also want to look up former Frontex head Fabrice Leggeri, including his political background.
At the very least, Frontex is massively betraying humanitarian ideals. I am sure there are fun ways to justify their behavior. Of course, to a large degree it's "lawful" -- but that does not mean it's good, just, fair or not racist.
You can even argue that Frontex treats people badly because they come on shitty boats, whereas Ukrainians who largely came on buses and in cars. I guess that argument would then be "we hate poor people", imo that does not make it any better. But it's not challenging to find marginally cloaked racism from a bunch of EU politicians talking about "Christian values" and "cultural compatibility" and whatnot, to justify that Ukrainians should be treated completely differently from Syrians or Afghans. E.g. here in Germany, Ukrainians somehow immediately received work permits and regular social benefits which are usually denied to other groups of migrants for years or until deportation. Poland actually changed its stance on migrants--as long as they are Ukrainian.
forcing eu members to remove any racial law from their legislation.
Sure - there are no (few?) blatantly racist laws in the EU. But that doesn't stop bureaucrats, police officers or judges from selectively applying laws, and that is something we see a lot of. And beyond all that is reported on the topic, a lot stays private and untold. If you are not a person affected by racism in your society, it's quite hard to understand.
Because calling the EPP or Renew Europe racist just because (and you say nothing about that) feels completely antieuropean.
Feelings? Really? We have lots of indications that many EPP feel closer ideologically to ECR, ID, and PfE than to the anti-racist groups of the parliament. H*ck, the prospective future German chancelor, member of EPP associate party CDU, ran his entire campaign on racism thinly cloaked as "protecting public safety". (Besides calling Muslim-raised boys "little pachas" and complaining about to-be-deported refugees blocking his dental appointments.)
same as I have done with the other person, with arguments from both sides, each one giving our opinion
Opinions that are not based in facts are worthless. Just look through your own comment and check how many times you refer to feelings and yourself being offended at the thought of something and whatnot. None of these things is grounded in facts.
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Why my supposed fallacies are being judged here but not his?
That's a fun use of supposed. When, in your very first reply, you started out with "I'm amazed to find out what's your opinion of any other place on earth." - what exactly is that if not a deflection/whataboutism?
In your third reply, when you subtly removed the parentheses around the word "extremism" and suggested that @shaserlark had said that *"most EU governments are right-wing extremist", even though what they said amounted to "most EU governments are right-wing, some are even right-wing extremists" (fact)? Was that an honest mistake?
He made fallacies also.
So their fallacies are real and don't deserve the label "supposed"?! Interesting.
Fwiw, I can't say that I noticed such a density of bad-faith patterns in @shaserlark's comments. But feel free to point them out.
Can anything be debated here?
Yes. However, there are rules. In particular, there are rules 2, 3, and 4. You know, provide facts, don't be a bigot, stuff like that.
I'm clearly against racism, I consider racism something terrible thus why I get offended when not racist people get accused of being racist.
So you'd be offended if someone called you racist and ... that is why you can't be racist? I am sure this tactic has a name; I really should read that h*cking Wikipedia page top to bottom at some point.
In any case, this is nowehere near a valid argument.Quite the contrary I think the European Union have done wonders integrating races
Fun bit: There are no human races, we're all the same race. Phenotypes are a terrible indicator of genome composition even; the genome difference between a white person and a black person may be much smaller than the difference between two white people.
When people talk about racism, what they actually mean is phenotype-based group-oriented enmity. The term "racism" is used because there are people who claim there may be human races (i.e. "racists") and not because that is actually true.
migration or border policies different from completely open borders are not racism
So, for one, no one says you need to have "completely open borders". It's just that the practices of Frontex are often very very far removed from treating humans with any dignity. Or in a way that helps European societies improve.
On that, you may want to look up what Frontex does (or just read @Shaserlark's comment, for a summary). You may also want to look up former Frontex head Fabrice Leggeri, including his political background.
At the very least, Frontex is massively betraying humanitarian ideals. I am sure there are fun ways to justify their behavior. Of course, to a large degree it's "lawful" -- but that does not mean it's good, just, fair or not racist.
You can even argue that Frontex treats people badly because they come on shitty boats, whereas Ukrainians who largely came on buses and in cars. I guess that argument would then be "we hate poor people", imo that does not make it any better. But it's not challenging to find marginally cloaked racism from a bunch of EU politicians talking about "Christian values" and "cultural compatibility" and whatnot, to justify that Ukrainians should be treated completely differently from Syrians or Afghans. E.g. here in Germany, Ukrainians somehow immediately received work permits and regular social benefits which are usually denied to other groups of migrants for years or until deportation. Poland actually changed its stance on migrants--as long as they are Ukrainian.
forcing eu members to remove any racial law from their legislation.
Sure - there are no (few?) blatantly racist laws in the EU. But that doesn't stop bureaucrats, police officers or judges from selectively applying laws, and that is something we see a lot of. And beyond all that is reported on the topic, a lot stays private and untold. If you are not a person affected by racism in your society, it's quite hard to understand.
Because calling the EPP or Renew Europe racist just because (and you say nothing about that) feels completely antieuropean.
Feelings? Really? We have lots of indications that many EPP feel closer ideologically to ECR, ID, and PfE than to the anti-racist groups of the parliament. H*ck, the prospective future German chancelor, member of EPP associate party CDU, ran his entire campaign on racism thinly cloaked as "protecting public safety". (Besides calling Muslim-raised boys "little pachas" and complaining about to-be-deported refugees blocking his dental appointments.)
same as I have done with the other person, with arguments from both sides, each one giving our opinion
Opinions that are not based in facts are worthless. Just look through your own comment and check how many times you refer to feelings and yourself being offended at the thought of something and whatnot. None of these things is grounded in facts.
I won't be spending more time in this community if moderators behave like this. Thank you for making this decision easy for me.
Enjoy your day.
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