Is it racist to oppose illegal immigrants?
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I think being anti-all-immigration is xenophobic. But it's completely different from being anti illegal immigration or wanting to, for example, stop the immigration of people in certain job markets to help the country's nationals to get jobs.
What I say is:
"It's better to bring in 100,000 immigrants who want to fill needed gaps in our society, contribute, build it up and create more jobs, than 10,000 immigrants who just want handouts"
I have some fantastic news for you. For some time now, if you enter the UK via an illegal route you already have No Recourse To Public Funds. This means you can't get council housing, you can't get universal credit, you can't get child credit and you're not entitled to free treatment in the NHS. You have to pay for everything yourself.
Why would anyone do that? Ignorance maybe, but usually because it's better than being killed and they already speak some English or have family here.
The last job you got-did you have to supply identity papers such as drivers licence, passport or similar? Employers legality have to establish your right to work in the UK.
So the his news for you is there's already no legal way for illegal immigrants to be paid anything at all in the UK. Automatically destitute. Woohoo. You must be so proud.
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Considering the high proportion of the population with ancestors who were illegal immigrants, there's also a question of what you consider as acceptable.
If illegal immigrants in the US are all white Christian beautiful women filling jobs that locals don't want to do in healthcare, is it different than Pedro from Honduras who works in construction but looks like he could be a drug mule.
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I have some fantastic news for you. For some time now, if you enter the UK via an illegal route you already have No Recourse To Public Funds. This means you can't get council housing, you can't get universal credit, you can't get child credit and you're not entitled to free treatment in the NHS. You have to pay for everything yourself.
Why would anyone do that? Ignorance maybe, but usually because it's better than being killed and they already speak some English or have family here.
The last job you got-did you have to supply identity papers such as drivers licence, passport or similar? Employers legality have to establish your right to work in the UK.
So the his news for you is there's already no legal way for illegal immigrants to be paid anything at all in the UK. Automatically destitute. Woohoo. You must be so proud.
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What is your argument? Please explain these moral differences based on culture. Could you provide an example?
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so you're ethically compromised but moralistically solid.
good place to be tbh. allows those who desperately need help to find salvation and those who have and can to follow the rules.
Basically. I'm also not against programmes to relieve other countries of their refugees (such as Greece) although I think such programmes should be evaluated for if we have the resources to support them and build them up into functioning members of society
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Thanks for a thoughtful response. My thoughts:
- In most cases, illegal immigrants do not benefit from government welfare programs, but they do work and contribute to the economy positively.
- In cases where data has been collected, immigrant populations tend to put more into the economy than take through social programs, when compared with native populations. I can provide sources and data on this if you'd like.
- Illegal immigrants may often not pay income tax, but they do pay most other forms of taxes that still end up paying more into the system than they get back. I can also provide evidence on this if you'd like.
- If tax isn't being collected from someone, when they're willing to pay it, that is 100% the fault of anti-immigration policy, not an immigration issue.
Thanks for a well-written reply. Here's some quick responses:
1... as mentioned the primary costs here come from increased crime which is hard to document. In high trust societies (which social welfare countries usually are) this has a disproportionately negative impact on the economy. Also, in several Scandinavian countries everyone has a right to emergency healthcare, regardless of their immigration status.
2... I believe you're correct when it comes to countries with less social welfare such as the US, however, this isn't the case in countries with robust social welfare systems. As recently as 2023 Denmark assessed the net contribution of migrants and their descendants on the public finances and published the results. The sum total effect of migrants was negative (-19B DKK). Per capita the average Dane had an impact of (22k DKK) per year and the average migrant (-21k DKK). Some migrant/migrant descendant subgroups were better or worse than others (best 52k DKK, worst -109k).
3... Sure, I assume this accounts for other societal costs such as law enforcement and crime?
4... See the response to #2. The taxes don't cover the costs.
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You've answered your own question, ending imperialism and colonialism so that unequal exchange doesn't create massive wealth disparities between nations and war no longer displaces people en masse, thereby "uplifting" formerly exploited peoples, would remove most of the incentives for mass migration. In a world at peace with itself borders are not necessary. Ask yourself, why is there no need to criminalize immigration between states/provinces within a country such as the US? Because the US, for the time being, is a nation at peace with itself. It doesn't have to be a perfect utopia - the US most certainly is not - to eliminate the need for border security / immigration control. Even a tenuous peace and a dubious justice is enough to eliminate the need for border enforcement.
Edit: This is a good write-up about how the criminalization of migrants does not even serve as an adequate deterrent to migration anyway. It is not only unjust, it's futile.
Ok, so just wishful thinking then. The problem is we live in the present, not some utopian future.
Ask yourself, why is there no need to criminalize immigration between states/provinces within a country such as the US?
Now you're just copying my comment and changing the timeframe lol.
Can you elaborate on how you think turning the world into a utopia would be achievable?
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No. And I am tired of people assuming I'm racist for not wanting idiots coming over in small boats from france
Would bigger boats help?
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Considering the high proportion of the population with ancestors who were illegal immigrants, there's also a question of what you consider as acceptable.
If illegal immigrants in the US are all white Christian beautiful women filling jobs that locals don't want to do in healthcare, is it different than Pedro from Honduras who works in construction but looks like he could be a drug mule.
OP did not mention the US.
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wrote last edited by [email protected]
Lol, that's for legal migrants
You can apply online for a change to your conditions if your financial circumstances change and you:
- have permission to stay on the basis of your family or private life
- have applied for permission to stay on the basis of your family or private life
- have permission to stay with a close relative with protection status as a child
- hold a British National (Overseas) visa
- have permission granted on any other immigration route and you want to apply on a discretionary basis because your circumstances are particularly compelling
Note the permission thing.
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The term is a little racist. It is like defining someone as an excon, or ex convict, rather than someone who has spent time in prison. Or as disabled rather than a person with a disability. You define people as a simple thing rather than as a whole person with a feature. It flattens people into less than they are and makes them less than human.
So opposing people who flaunt the rules is a separate question to opposing illegal immigrants. You don't dismiss their humanity, you don't discard them, you say "You breeched the rules and here are the consequences."
The second layer is whether you believe in the rules. Do you believe people from other countries are fundamentally different to you? Are they less because of where they come from? If so, yes, racist. If not, then probably not.
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I feel like "illegal" immigration as a concept is inherently racist and being upset and anyone for not coming over the "right" way is also racist.
Without a one world government that could police people cross border, wouldn't it be all to easy walk in to a country, do a bit crime, and then walk to the next one? Not to mention human trafficking problems if no one was tracked how they travel across countries.
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Usually, yes
Because usually the reason they have to be illegal is racist, and the person complaining about illegal immigration is fine with it.Where are you coming from with "the reason they have to be illegal is racist"? If you wouldn't mind clarifying.
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No. And I am tired of people assuming I'm racist for not wanting idiots coming over in small boats from france
While I don’t know your racial euphemisms, “small boats” raises red flags. Maybe it’s not racist, but ….
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Ok, so just wishful thinking then. The problem is we live in the present, not some utopian future.
Ask yourself, why is there no need to criminalize immigration between states/provinces within a country such as the US?
Now you're just copying my comment and changing the timeframe lol.
Can you elaborate on how you think turning the world into a utopia would be achievable?
So clearly you didn't fully read my comment, so why should I expend the effort typing out a response? It would be a waste if you're just going to read part of it and then ask questions I've already given the answer to.
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Their mode of entry into the UK was illegal but any asylum claims they make will be assessed as being potentially valid. I think you were saying the same thing but not sure.
The reason people are particularly pissed off is that Farage and co. have framed the debate as an issue of fairness. Essentially the charge levelled at the irregular migrants is queue jumping, which we don't look upon fondly in our culture.
On our side of the pond, it’s becoming more apparent how many ways immigrants can end up undocumented. Of course it’s always framed as drug cartel member sneaking over the border at night to rape the women, or whatever bs stereotypes they can use to frighten people, but
- sometimes it’s a college student who dropped out of school and didn’t leave
- sometimes it’s a tech worker who got laid off and hasn’t yet found another sponsor
- sometimes it’s someone struggling to do the right thing and missed something. Maybe a paperwork thing a decade ago
- sometimes it’s an ambush when they are doing the right thing
- sometimes they’re refugees from horrible circumstances.
- sometimes it’s someone just trying to work
- sometimes they’re just trying to live as a family when a cruel system would separate them
If your system, like ours, uses the worst stereotypes to scapegoat all undocumented aliens, deprives them of their rights, uses racial profiling to decide who to attack, “officers” hide their faces and identities and don’t even seem to know the laws they’re supposedly enforcing, use escalating violence for infractions that have always been civil issues, claim they’re deporting “the worst of the worst criminals” while setting ambushes at work sites and immigrant processing centers, then you too may be racist
We’re over here trying to set an example of what NOT to do, apparently.
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While I don’t know your racial euphemisms, “small boats” raises red flags. Maybe it’s not racist, but ….
How is describing the size of a boat racist
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Without a one world government that could police people cross border, wouldn't it be all to easy walk in to a country, do a bit crime, and then walk to the next one? Not to mention human trafficking problems if no one was tracked how they travel across countries.
So you think every person on the planet should be tracked every time they cross any border anywhere?
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On our side of the pond, it’s becoming more apparent how many ways immigrants can end up undocumented. Of course it’s always framed as drug cartel member sneaking over the border at night to rape the women, or whatever bs stereotypes they can use to frighten people, but
- sometimes it’s a college student who dropped out of school and didn’t leave
- sometimes it’s a tech worker who got laid off and hasn’t yet found another sponsor
- sometimes it’s someone struggling to do the right thing and missed something. Maybe a paperwork thing a decade ago
- sometimes it’s an ambush when they are doing the right thing
- sometimes they’re refugees from horrible circumstances.
- sometimes it’s someone just trying to work
- sometimes they’re just trying to live as a family when a cruel system would separate them
If your system, like ours, uses the worst stereotypes to scapegoat all undocumented aliens, deprives them of their rights, uses racial profiling to decide who to attack, “officers” hide their faces and identities and don’t even seem to know the laws they’re supposedly enforcing, use escalating violence for infractions that have always been civil issues, claim they’re deporting “the worst of the worst criminals” while setting ambushes at work sites and immigrant processing centers, then you too may be racist
We’re over here trying to set an example of what NOT to do, apparently.
There are genuine integration issues in the UK so the anti-migrant bloc do have some valid concerns. However, there will be a non-insignificant amount of racists among them.
Weirdly, the "skipping the queue" rhetoric even works with fellow migrants. I have a friend from Iran who I used to work with that moved to the UK ~3 years ago; he's way angrier about irregular channel crossings than the average Scottish person I know. I'd imagine spending a lot of money and years on a waiting list before being given a work visa was a grating experience though.
