French President Macron says France will recognize Palestine as a state
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Unironically, admitting Israel, Palestine and Lebanon into the European Union might actually be the solution to this whole fucking clusterfuck.
Edit: major major reforms should take place of course, and Israel should dismantle apartheid and pay reparations, while Lebanon should dismantle the sectarian dysfunction of their government, but as a long term horizon this region needs the wildly successful EU model of peaceful pacification more than any other region in the world.
Unironically, admitting Israel, Palestine and Lebanon into the European Union might actually be the solution to this whole fucking clusterfuck.
Only if the EU disarms Israel and restores the '47 border in the process, then prosecute the IDF leadership for war crimes.
Otherwise, you might as well suggest we admit Ukraine and Russia to the EU to settle that fight as well.
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Are you talking about Napaleon? I genuinely do not understand what century are you living in, because modern France never invaded Haiti and houthis are not legal body of Haiti.
I get your point, but also, Haiti's final payment to France was in 1947
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Isn't a group a "they" and not a "what". Israel is a nation of people who sees themselves as Israeli. Entire generations are born there and consider that land their home. You can't be born a terrorist.
It's possible in the future to build some kinda secular Haifa Republic but this war has made that an incredibly utopian prospect.
It's not clear what position you advocate except the continuation of war.
so where was that logic when palestine was literally invaded by a group of europeans calling themselves zionists? or europeans claiming some sort of “british mandate”?
revert it to palestine. it’s what it was before our grandparents generation invaded.
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I doubt that would ever happen anyway, but Britain and Ireland were both in the EU for a long time before they actually struck a peace deal in the Good Friday Agreement.
Ireland's in the EU since 1973
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Ireland's in the EU since 1973
But the violence carried on until 1998. Just them both joining the EU wasn't enough. It wasn't genocide levels, but it took a lot of work from both sides to get the bombs to stop.
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Recognising the state of Palestine in over a month doesn't change the urgency to let aid reach Palestinians. Of course work on that front must be done as well, and sooner than September.
I just don't understand your point. How does officially recognising the statehood of Palestine now or in a month affect the current starvation crisis?
I just don’t understand your point. How does officially recognising the statehood of Palestine now or in a month affect the current starvation crisis?
That's the point, it doesn't... condemning Israel publicly, temporarily breaking economic relationship with Israel and/or urging other to so the same would (for example)
My point is this is likely just empty talk... Imagine the major of your town saying they will increase the Fire Fighters budget in the next fiscal year as a response to your house being on fire RIGHT NOW.... do you get it now?
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It's still important to recognise Palestine as a state. And it doesn't delay any other action.
It seems to me that the progress you see is not the progress you want, so you consider it pointless. But the truth is, it's still progress, and it doesn't take away from the other priorities you mention.
So, once again, I don't understand your point.
And it doesn’t delay any other action.
What other actions?
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Good. Now let’s recognize it everywhere else and stop recognizing israel.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]This. Normally, it's the Messiah who is supposed to announce the creation of Israel, and I still haven't seen that. And there's nothing in the texts to indicate that Israel should be in Palestine; it could just as easily be on the surface of the sun.
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I doubt that would ever happen anyway, but Britain and Ireland were both in the EU for a long time before they actually struck a peace deal in the Good Friday Agreement.
I know, the EU was also supposed to be the solution to the Cyprus occupation, and that didn't work either.
I'm not saying that the EU itself is the solution, but that the horizon of the EU, or at least something similar (a MEU?) could play that stabilizing role.
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States only exist in our minds.
States are a...state of mind
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As tens of thousands of Gazans starve to death this week...
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where do I mention a people should not exist? never.
the state itself was created by a group knowing full well they would need genocide to make their state. they call it, these days, “mowing the lawn.” the criminals need prison and the working class people who just want peace deserve it. in Palestine.
the tricky part of these convos is not conflating the nation state, israel with the Jewish people. Or zionism with the Jewish people. Or the state israel with the followers of Israel.
hope that helped.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]So no Israel, just Palestine? That would leave Israelis a majority population in Palestine. Do you expect Israelis to magically not outvote the Palestinians, or are you proposing an autocracy or an apartheid system stripping Israelis of their voting rights?
I would also strongly suggest you do some reading on the factors leading up to the Rwandan genocide. A "just" peace isn't enough; after generations of life under apartheid, there are no easy or quick paths to lasting peace. I won't commit the hubris of pretending I have a definitive solution, and I think it's important to underline that as outsiders to the conflict, the best we can do is offer to safeguard peace. That's what the Two-State Solution was meant to do, that's what arms sanctions are meant to do, that's what the threat of economic retaliation would be meant to do (granted each with their own significant shortcomings). Denying the practical existence of either Israel or Palestine is antithetical to building a path towards lasting peace and a meaningful international effort towards safeguarding said peace.
For a practical example, assuming a peace treaty ever gets signed, sending UN Blue Helmets would be diplomatically easier if all parties involved recognized Palestine and Israel as sovereign states. Even if that all seems like a moot point right now what when neither Israel nor most Western nations are actually looking forward to peace.
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In France, they repressed palestinian strike, canceled meeting and media defended Israel, he told us he won't arrest Netanyahu, despiste the CPI decision. There is so many things wrong.
Even if he does it, i don't trust him, he could act long before.
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UN forces?
Forget it. There are UN forces in southern Lebanon, quite a lot actually, with the mandate to disarm hezbollah. You saw how that went - Lebanon is still kind of a failed state were hezbollah was a major armed faction with thousands of rockets until the recent war with Israel. There is a reason why the UN is not really trusted by many Israelis and I really doubt that UN peacekeepers are able to disarm Hamas in Gaza, normalize the situation and stop militant palestinians from attacking Israel. It does sound like a good solution, but TBH there is no military force in the world that is able to win such an urban guerilla war. Russia maybe by destroying everything and murdering everybody. UN forces won't help.
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And it doesn’t delay any other action.
What other actions?
What other action does this delay?
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What other action does this delay?
Well none because they are not taking any other action...
I am not against the French recognizing Palestine as a State, I am against them (and the rest of the world) doing nothing about the immediate urgency that is the genocide Israel is actively conducting. Why is this so hard to understand?
Picture this: your house is on fire NOW, your son/daughter/dog/cat is trapped inside... nobody comes to help and then you hear the Mayor saying they will increase the Fire Fighter's budget in the next fiscal year.
I am certain you would not be against the budget increase but that really does nothing about your immediate and urgent need, does it?
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Took fucking long enough
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Unironically, admitting Israel, Palestine and Lebanon into the European Union might actually be the solution to this whole fucking clusterfuck.
Edit: major major reforms should take place of course, and Israel should dismantle apartheid and pay reparations, while Lebanon should dismantle the sectarian dysfunction of their government, but as a long term horizon this region needs the wildly successful EU model of peaceful pacification more than any other region in the world.
There is only one solution to a Fascist state like Israel and that is dismantling its entire government.
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So no Israel, just Palestine? That would leave Israelis a majority population in Palestine. Do you expect Israelis to magically not outvote the Palestinians, or are you proposing an autocracy or an apartheid system stripping Israelis of their voting rights?
I would also strongly suggest you do some reading on the factors leading up to the Rwandan genocide. A "just" peace isn't enough; after generations of life under apartheid, there are no easy or quick paths to lasting peace. I won't commit the hubris of pretending I have a definitive solution, and I think it's important to underline that as outsiders to the conflict, the best we can do is offer to safeguard peace. That's what the Two-State Solution was meant to do, that's what arms sanctions are meant to do, that's what the threat of economic retaliation would be meant to do (granted each with their own significant shortcomings). Denying the practical existence of either Israel or Palestine is antithetical to building a path towards lasting peace and a meaningful international effort towards safeguarding said peace.
For a practical example, assuming a peace treaty ever gets signed, sending UN Blue Helmets would be diplomatically easier if all parties involved recognized Palestine and Israel as sovereign states. Even if that all seems like a moot point right now what when neither Israel nor most Western nations are actually looking forward to peace.
What’s an “israeli”?
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What’s an “israeli”?
In this context? Someone who is currently on the good side of the current apartheid system in Israel/Palestine.
Don't play dumb with me, you know full well what I meant. If you have a point, make it.
