French President Macron says France will recognize Palestine as a state
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Took fucking long enough
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Unironically, admitting Israel, Palestine and Lebanon into the European Union might actually be the solution to this whole fucking clusterfuck.
Edit: major major reforms should take place of course, and Israel should dismantle apartheid and pay reparations, while Lebanon should dismantle the sectarian dysfunction of their government, but as a long term horizon this region needs the wildly successful EU model of peaceful pacification more than any other region in the world.
There is only one solution to a Fascist state like Israel and that is dismantling its entire government.
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So no Israel, just Palestine? That would leave Israelis a majority population in Palestine. Do you expect Israelis to magically not outvote the Palestinians, or are you proposing an autocracy or an apartheid system stripping Israelis of their voting rights?
I would also strongly suggest you do some reading on the factors leading up to the Rwandan genocide. A "just" peace isn't enough; after generations of life under apartheid, there are no easy or quick paths to lasting peace. I won't commit the hubris of pretending I have a definitive solution, and I think it's important to underline that as outsiders to the conflict, the best we can do is offer to safeguard peace. That's what the Two-State Solution was meant to do, that's what arms sanctions are meant to do, that's what the threat of economic retaliation would be meant to do (granted each with their own significant shortcomings). Denying the practical existence of either Israel or Palestine is antithetical to building a path towards lasting peace and a meaningful international effort towards safeguarding said peace.
For a practical example, assuming a peace treaty ever gets signed, sending UN Blue Helmets would be diplomatically easier if all parties involved recognized Palestine and Israel as sovereign states. Even if that all seems like a moot point right now what when neither Israel nor most Western nations are actually looking forward to peace.
What’s an “israeli”?
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What’s an “israeli”?
In this context? Someone who is currently on the good side of the current apartheid system in Israel/Palestine.
Don't play dumb with me, you know full well what I meant. If you have a point, make it.
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Well none because they are not taking any other action...
I am not against the French recognizing Palestine as a State, I am against them (and the rest of the world) doing nothing about the immediate urgency that is the genocide Israel is actively conducting. Why is this so hard to understand?
Picture this: your house is on fire NOW, your son/daughter/dog/cat is trapped inside... nobody comes to help and then you hear the Mayor saying they will increase the Fire Fighter's budget in the next fiscal year.
I am certain you would not be against the budget increase but that really does nothing about your immediate and urgent need, does it?
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Well considering your very first comment was asking "when" this was going to happen:
Picture this: your house is on fire NOW, your son/daughter/dog/cat is trapped inside... nobody comes to help and then you hear the Mayor saying they will increase the Fire Fighter's budget
And you respond by saying "When will you increase the budget?" Instead of saying what you actually need, then get upset when people respond to the question you actually asked instead of the statement you had in your head.
And again, the mayor announcing an increase in the fire fighter's budget does not slow down help for your home.
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In this context? Someone who is currently on the good side of the current apartheid system in Israel/Palestine.
Don't play dumb with me, you know full well what I meant. If you have a point, make it.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]those folk are Palestinian. that’s my entire point.
yes apartheid exists. shooting for a two state solution codifies this apartheid. that is wrong.
it needs to be completely reverted and the folks physically doing the genocide given the proper sentences.
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Are you talking about Napaleon? I genuinely do not understand what century are you living in, because modern France never invaded Haiti and houthis are not legal body of Haiti.
Huh, so you just don't know the history. Fair enough. Here's the Wikipedia article on the heinous debt that France forced Haiti to pay - at literal gunpoint - for daring to free themselves from slavery and French Colonial rule. They pulled all sorts of scummy tricks, like forcing them to use French banks and to take out loans to pay the debt, which of course resulted in more debt. It took over a century for the debt to be paid, and was a transfer of a huge part of the wealth of the entire country directly to the French rich (at some points this constituted FORTY PERCENT of the total income of the country). It severely impacted the development of Haiti over the last two centuries, and is widely held to be directly responsible for the poverty Haiti now experiences.
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those folk are Palestinian. that’s my entire point.
yes apartheid exists. shooting for a two state solution codifies this apartheid. that is wrong.
it needs to be completely reverted and the folks physically doing the genocide given the proper sentences.
If you've got a plan to achieve that and doesn't involve genociding israel, shoot for it. But I don't think "unrecognizing" Israel is a particularly productive step towards that.
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Unironically, admitting Israel, Palestine and Lebanon into the European Union might actually be the solution to this whole fucking clusterfuck.
Edit: major major reforms should take place of course, and Israel should dismantle apartheid and pay reparations, while Lebanon should dismantle the sectarian dysfunction of their government, but as a long term horizon this region needs the wildly successful EU model of peaceful pacification more than any other region in the world.
The EU struggles enough with keeping Hungary and Poland in line. Now imagine taking on countries that have been at war (or at least a cold war) for three quarters of a century.
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If you've got a plan to achieve that and doesn't involve genociding israel, shoot for it. But I don't think "unrecognizing" Israel is a particularly productive step towards that.
it’s simple:
the criminals doing a genocide go to prison.
the nation state gets dissolved.
one state is left, palestine.
stop being so thick about this. the nation of israel should not exist. that does not mean the people who follow israel. you know the difference.
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it’s simple:
the criminals doing a genocide go to prison.
the nation state gets dissolved.
one state is left, palestine.
stop being so thick about this. the nation of israel should not exist. that does not mean the people who follow israel. you know the difference.
And I want a unicorn for Christmas.
Look, right now I don't even have a good reason to hope that Israel will be stopped before they finish their genocide. But step 1 is to get a permanent ceasefire in place. Whatever fantasies we might have beyond that is a moot point. But recognizing both parties as sovereign would go some way towards facilitating the terms and enforcement of that ceasefire.
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And I want a unicorn for Christmas.
Look, right now I don't even have a good reason to hope that Israel will be stopped before they finish their genocide. But step 1 is to get a permanent ceasefire in place. Whatever fantasies we might have beyond that is a moot point. But recognizing both parties as sovereign would go some way towards facilitating the terms and enforcement of that ceasefire.
yeah. it might. but it’s never ever worked out in the history of man when one party is doing a genocide. it took a few million russians to stop a famous genocidal ass in the 20th century.
the key here is that we cannot enable this behavior by acknowledging it as any kind of “ok.”
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I get your point, but also, Haiti's final payment to France was in 1947
Except they paid to United States, not France.
government of the United States funded the acquisition of Haiti's treasury in 1911,[10] and in 1922, the rest of Haiti's debt was moved to be paid to American investors.[11] The New York Times states that it took until 1947 for Haiti to finally pay off all the associated interest to the National City Bank of New York (now Citibank).
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Huh, so you just don't know the history. Fair enough. Here's the Wikipedia article on the heinous debt that France forced Haiti to pay - at literal gunpoint - for daring to free themselves from slavery and French Colonial rule. They pulled all sorts of scummy tricks, like forcing them to use French banks and to take out loans to pay the debt, which of course resulted in more debt. It took over a century for the debt to be paid, and was a transfer of a huge part of the wealth of the entire country directly to the French rich (at some points this constituted FORTY PERCENT of the total income of the country). It severely impacted the development of Haiti over the last two centuries, and is widely held to be directly responsible for the poverty Haiti now experiences.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Are you challenged? How do you think this happened? Haiti revolution and slavery is literally part of napoleonic wars that I mentioned, but you started saying I don't know history. How do you seemingly know stuff about Haiti, yet don't know this? Countries usually don't see something that happened a century or two ago relevant to modern times
Please, read the wiki link you sent me, but obviously failed to read it yourself, especially the part about who owned the debt after +-1900 (forgot the year, but Haiti's debt was transferred to be paid to US, not France).
