Palestinians starve as Israel continues full ban on humanitarian aid
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What Hamas did is very excusable.
They killed and kidnapped civilians which isn’t excusable. It would have been excusable to attack the military, not civilians.
33% military. And the kidnapping is done becsuse it is the only way to get their own people free.
Israel has been kidnapping Palestinians for decades in far larger quantities. Nobody can ascend a moral high ground over Hamas doing to same thing back.
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What Hamas did is very excusable.
They killed and kidnapped civilians which isn’t excusable. It would have been excusable to attack the military, not civilians.
I don't like to get into this debate because it's pointless this late in the game, but here goes:
1-If you're going to fight apartheid, you will have to play dirty. Yeah yeah hostages bad, but Palestinian detainees (which are, to be very fucking clear, also hostages) won't be freed by vague platitudes and appeals to the rules of war. They can be freed by hostage exchanges, which need hostages on your side to exchange. Those who make humane revolution impossible make inhumane revolution inevitable.
2-The deaths on October 7th are not solely deliberately Hamas-inflicted. There's a whole host of people who died in the crossfire, either by Hamas or Israeli fire, and many who were killed by Israeli friendly fire. Look up the Hannibal directive.
3-They did attack the Israeli military. 33% of people killed during the attack were military or security forces, and if you look up the towns they attacked on October 7th (which isn't hard to do; there's a list on Wikipedia) you'll see that almost every one has an IDF base. I can't tell you how much because nobody involved cared to run that sort of analysis and Israel had unqualified people do work that was crucial to that sort of analysis (these are the same people who made later disproven mass rape allegations).
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This has nothing to do with "Jews". You differentiate Hama's and Palestinians. Why not the other way. Most Jews aren't even in Israel. Many in Israel don't support it even. I'm all for calling out Israel.
Yeah, that's a fair point. Substitute with 'citizens of Israel' then.
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I don't like to get into this debate because it's pointless this late in the game, but here goes:
1-If you're going to fight apartheid, you will have to play dirty. Yeah yeah hostages bad, but Palestinian detainees (which are, to be very fucking clear, also hostages) won't be freed by vague platitudes and appeals to the rules of war. They can be freed by hostage exchanges, which need hostages on your side to exchange. Those who make humane revolution impossible make inhumane revolution inevitable.
2-The deaths on October 7th are not solely deliberately Hamas-inflicted. There's a whole host of people who died in the crossfire, either by Hamas or Israeli fire, and many who were killed by Israeli friendly fire. Look up the Hannibal directive.
3-They did attack the Israeli military. 33% of people killed during the attack were military or security forces, and if you look up the towns they attacked on October 7th (which isn't hard to do; there's a list on Wikipedia) you'll see that almost every one has an IDF base. I can't tell you how much because nobody involved cared to run that sort of analysis and Israel had unqualified people do work that was crucial to that sort of analysis (these are the same people who made later disproven mass rape allegations).
Understandable, yes.
Predictable, yes.
Deserved, yes.
Effective, perhaps.
Excusable? No.
Are we really debating whether it’s okay to rape / kidnap / slaughter civilians?
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Understandable, yes.
Predictable, yes.
Deserved, yes.
Effective, perhaps.
Excusable? No.
Are we really debating whether it’s okay to rape / kidnap / slaughter civilians?
Are we really debating whether it’s okay to rape / kidnap / slaughter civilians?
For the rape and slaughter part, obviously no. I'm not denying the actual atrocities that Hamas committed during the attack; they did rape and murder civilians and heads need to roll for that.
For the kidnapping part, the question still remains: What else were they supposed to do? Under the assumption that all lives are equally valuable, I see no reason to denounce taking hostages unless there was another effective way of gaining leverage to negotiate with Israel. Otherwise the only options left for the resistance are to give up or fight fire with fire.
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Are we really debating whether it’s okay to rape / kidnap / slaughter civilians?
For the rape and slaughter part, obviously no. I'm not denying the actual atrocities that Hamas committed during the attack; they did rape and murder civilians and heads need to roll for that.
For the kidnapping part, the question still remains: What else were they supposed to do? Under the assumption that all lives are equally valuable, I see no reason to denounce taking hostages unless there was another effective way of gaining leverage to negotiate with Israel. Otherwise the only options left for the resistance are to give up or fight fire with fire.
Palestinians heartily agree with your “what else are we supposed to do” notion and long since stopped waiting for the world’s moral courage to come to their rescue. When they did that they also said that they no longer cared what anyone thought of the morality of their actions. They don’t need them to be excusable by us and frankly they aren’t. I’m past excusing anyone involved in this conflict.
Do you really tjink the October attacks gained them any “negotiating leverage?”
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What Hamas did is very excusable.
the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) has explicitly affirmed the right of Palestinians to resist Israel’s military occupation, including through armed struggle.
Armed struggle != war crimes. One does not justify the other. The October attacks were like 5% achieving military objectives, the rest mindless slaughter, to the point where one can legitimately question whether the military objectives were not completely incidental. Hamas could have bee-lined for as many IDF outposts as they could, they didn't, they shot up Hippie Kibbutzim of all places.
Same, of course, goes for the IDF and what they're currently doing.
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Armed struggle != war crimes. One does not justify the other. The October attacks were like 5% achieving military objectives, the rest mindless slaughter, to the point where one can legitimately question whether the military objectives were not completely incidental. Hamas could have bee-lined for as many IDF outposts as they could, they didn't, they shot up Hippie Kibbutzim of all places.
Same, of course, goes for the IDF and what they're currently doing.
the rest mindless slaughter
Hasbara. Hamas wanted hostages and had no incentive to commit "mindless slaughter" - they're not mindless demons. It's likely the majority of the deaths were from the Hannibal Directive, which is why Israel won't let the UN conduct an investigation.
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the rest mindless slaughter
Hasbara. Hamas wanted hostages and had no incentive to commit "mindless slaughter" - they're not mindless demons. It's likely the majority of the deaths were from the Hannibal Directive, which is why Israel won't let the UN conduct an investigation.
May be the case, we'll probably see when the dust has settled. OTOH, it's still a war crime to abduct non-combatants so my point stands. And no, reservists aren't combatants.
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May be the case, we'll probably see when the dust has settled. OTOH, it's still a war crime to abduct non-combatants so my point stands. And no, reservists aren't combatants.
The dust has very much settled and Israel is very much refusing to release the numbers.
The best illustration is probably this one. Why do you think all the holes are in the car roofs?
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Hamas did not rape any civilians. This is recently been fully debunked. The Israeli october 7 investigator said there was no evidence of any rape happening.
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Unconscionable. What Hamas did was inexcusable, but Hamas doesn't treat Palestinians any better than they do Jews as a matter of public record. I get that Hamas have exploited just about any effort to help the average Palestinian ever attempted, but that should not be an argument against helping what amounts to more victims of Hamas.
Fuck off with that hamas bullshit. Hamas exists because the secular palestinians agreed to a ceasefire in exchange for self-determination. Instead of freedom, they got area C, colonies and settler violence. They are the only one defending people from a genocide. Hamas are the good guys.
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Armed struggle != war crimes. One does not justify the other. The October attacks were like 5% achieving military objectives, the rest mindless slaughter, to the point where one can legitimately question whether the military objectives were not completely incidental. Hamas could have bee-lined for as many IDF outposts as they could, they didn't, they shot up Hippie Kibbutzim of all places.
Same, of course, goes for the IDF and what they're currently doing.
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Understandable, yes.
Predictable, yes.
Deserved, yes.
Effective, perhaps.
Excusable? No.
Are we really debating whether it’s okay to rape / kidnap / slaughter civilians?
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On Wednesday, the UN aid coordination office, OCHA, said in its latest update that Israel’s ban on entry of aid has continued for nearly a month and that no aid entered the enclave throughout this period. All requests by humanitarian agencies to coordinate access with Israeli authorities have been denied.
Helles recalled when the blockade was imposed. The shops were empty within hours, and what was left was too expensive, she said. Even the charity distributions, which once offered a variety of meals, have dwindled, now providing only small servings of rice at the time of Iftar.
After days of eating little more than rice, Huda couldn’t sleep at night, suffering from severe stomach pain and colic. She was diagnosed with a stomach infection two weeks ago.
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Hamas did not rape any civilians. This is recently been fully debunked. The Israeli october 7 investigator said there was no evidence of any rape happening.
Any rape at all? I thought they'd only confirmed that no mass rape happened? If I'm misremembering that's great.
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Any rape at all? I thought they'd only confirmed that no mass rape happened? If I'm misremembering that's great.
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Months? More like decades. We're at more than half a century of this shit by now.
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Fuck off with that hamas bullshit. Hamas exists because the secular palestinians agreed to a ceasefire in exchange for self-determination. Instead of freedom, they got area C, colonies and settler violence. They are the only one defending people from a genocide. Hamas are the good guys.
Hamas are the good guys.
In the fight against Israel. Let's not forget that they're still a brutal authoritarian regime that must go immediately after someone does something about Israel.
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Absolute zero. Everything was made up.
