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Wouldn't the correct answer in that case just be to make it easier to immigrate and gain citizenship, rather than expecting you to be born there?
Wouldn't the correct answer in that case just be to make it easier to immigrate and gain citizenship,
And the answer to climate change is to stop using carbon sources.
And the answer to wealth inequality is to tax the rich.
Lots of hard problems have simple answers. They're easy, and impossible to implement.
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No. It would be abused and ultimately break the country so it's no longer good for anyone.
In order to still be a country where people can seek for a better future the first objective should be maintain the country prosper, and that would need some restrictions.
If you just look for the short term you would be advocating everyone for a terrible future. Even if you are well intended and think that allowing a limitless number of people to stablish seeking for a better life (which is what would happen), ultimately the system will be unable to hold and we all will fall together.
We must be smarter and think of a system that can keep improving people's life for the foreseeable future.
It would be abused and ultimately break the country
Exactly. But that can happen when citizens have children too. We can't be too careful when we're talking about protecting our ideal society.
Everyone, even children of citizens, should have to apply for citizenship and be granted it. Otherwise they get deported.
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Wouldn't the correct answer in that case just be to make it easier to immigrate and gain citizenship,
And the answer to climate change is to stop using carbon sources.
And the answer to wealth inequality is to tax the rich.
Lots of hard problems have simple answers. They're easy, and impossible to implement.
So we give up with a half-measure, that helps the rich moreso than the poor without addressing the underlying issue?
This isn't a helpful or sustainable approach. Should we give up on climate change because reducing carbon output is hard, or say, "Well, as long as you don't use coal, its good enough." Of course not. Not to mention that making immigration and/or citizenship more accessible isn't an impossible task at all, esspecially relative to climate change or weath inequality.
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No. Because I don't think citizenship is solely about what plot of land you are born on.
The world's a fucked up place, and birthright citizenship probably isn't the best way to go about things (neither are borders in general but that's a tangent), but I don't think removing rights before a better implementation is in place is the best way to go about things. More people get hurt this way, obviously, and we lose sight of what the actual point of this was. Not to mention it's easy for fascism to take root when you can more easily say who gets to be a citizen.
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The world's a fucked up place, and birthright citizenship probably isn't the best way to go about things (neither are borders in general but that's a tangent), but I don't think removing rights before a better implementation is in place is the best way to go about things. More people get hurt this way, obviously, and we lose sight of what the actual point of this was. Not to mention it's easy for fascism to take root when you can more easily say who gets to be a citizen.
Removing? We never had birthright citizenship.
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Removing? We never had birthright citizenship.
We're clearly not from the same countries, but I think this discussion stems from the recent political actions in the USA. In that instance, yes birthright citizenship is the most common method of citizenship and would have severe consequences by changing the law arbitrarily.
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We're clearly not from the same countries, but I think this discussion stems from the recent political actions in the USA. In that instance, yes birthright citizenship is the most common method of citizenship and would have severe consequences by changing the law arbitrarily.
The US was never specified here so I didn't know it was the expected topic
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In those few, extremely rare cases are enough to fuck up a nation's politics, immigration isn't the problem.
They're rare, but not impossible, esspecially when it comes to the involvement of powerful/rich governments, corporations or individuals. We already have enough of that, no reason to make it easier for effectively no gain.
Edit: esspecially considering that ability to chose the location your child is born in is based primarily off wealth rather than moral character or anything else positive.
Making immigration more difficult already benefits the wealthy. Not having birthright citizenship won't change that.
Citizens are already being born without any questions about their character. And voting. And changing politics. Because foreign influence doesn't come from some kind of sleeper agent citizen who was bred to take down governments, it comes through social media, embargos, lobbying and data harvesting—which is way easier than some kind of Bourne Identity plot.
But it's become clear you're arguing in case of a specific worst case scenario that I don't believe is any more likely when jus soli comes with few or no conditions.
Unkess you have specific data to support jus soli's direct responsibility for the modern day manipulation by foreign influence, I don't want to continue this conversation.
Have a good one.
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Yes.
Because all the ideas of "national character" and "nation" are worth about as much as the paper to write them on, or electricity to transmit and display them, you get the idea.
Only the life itself matters.
And the life itself becomes the better the wider is the participation in the government and the society's life by all people in it, with which citizenship helps a lot. And people having a baby on some territory are obviously sufficiently firmly present there to be its inhabitants in fact, and all inhabitants of a territory should be citizens. They already, directly or not, pay taxes and work. Citizenship is (should be) just the other side of the coin.
It's not acceptable for two people to work in one country and one of them to not have citizenship. From labor interests, from ethics, and just from plain dignity, why the hell should someone living in a land not have citizenship? It's not a privilege. It's a set of rights and responsibilities, someone having a different set is segregation.
Also cultural diversity (not the artificial bunching together into protected groups, like that bullshit Americans do) is precious, having an influx of immigrants that become citizens without any fear of being stripped of that citizenship or being deported is a blessing. There are countries like Argentina, Brazil, USA, that once were close to becoming better and richer than Europe, US still is by inertia. They all had such a trait.
At the same time the education system should guarantee that such a citizen will really be a member of the society when they turn 18. Speaking the language, knowing the constitutional law at least. Not a ghetto dweller.
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Making immigration more difficult already benefits the wealthy. Not having birthright citizenship won't change that.
Citizens are already being born without any questions about their character. And voting. And changing politics. Because foreign influence doesn't come from some kind of sleeper agent citizen who was bred to take down governments, it comes through social media, embargos, lobbying and data harvesting—which is way easier than some kind of Bourne Identity plot.
But it's become clear you're arguing in case of a specific worst case scenario that I don't believe is any more likely when jus soli comes with few or no conditions.
Unkess you have specific data to support jus soli's direct responsibility for the modern day manipulation by foreign influence, I don't want to continue this conversation.
Have a good one.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Making immigration more difficult already benefits the wealthy. Not having birthright citizenship won't change that.
I think you're misinterpreting my intentions. I believe that making immigration and citizenship easier is best. I just also believe that Jus Soli is an ineffective band-aid solution, that doesn little to help the common man.
I'm not informed enough to be very specific in execution, but in my mind, immigration should be extremely generous. Ideally, I'd say it should be effectively unlimited, but I know there are economic considerations that need to be taken into account, such as the rate of housing construction. That said, I don't feel confident enough to outline specifics beyond that. I have nothing against immigrants or immigration.
Its purely citizenship, and the political power it involves specifically that I believe shouldn't be given out based on geographic location at one instant alone. Given that its effectively giving you power to change how the country is run, it should be given to those who are directly affected by how the country is run. Ideally, I'd almost want a system where someone can't be more invested in a different country, although again, I'm not sure about specifics. Prehaps something along the lines of a limit of how much property can be owned outside the country relative to within the country, so regular people qualify easily, but someone can't get citizenship while they own a dozen houses elsewhere. Again, I'm not an expert, and not trying to advocate for a specific solution, just that immigration be made easier and citizenship shouldn't be something you can buy.
Edit: fixed a couple typos.