How can progressive "European patriots" protect Europe from the right-populists who want to destroy Europe as we know it?
-
But we could also try fascism again. Maybe it works this time.
/s
Nobody is really trying to stop the oligarchs and their lobbies, it's the only real political taboo that remains. People watch the right rising and it's being shown as if that was coming out of nowhere and too unregulated capitalism wasn't the main driver of the issue. The occasional article points out that billionaires should not have so much power or even exist, but these are drowned in the noise of the media.
-
100% unconditional intolerance for fascists. You can’t give them a millimeter or they’ll take the entire country.
I suggest watching Thought Slime’s recent video if you wish to know how to effectively counteract fascists.
The gist is that you shouldn’t try to argue with them, they don’t care about reality. Don’t let them look reasonable by arguing as if they were, insist on pointing out they’re being assholes (which they are) and that anything they suggest is so obviously wrong it doesn’t even need to be explained why it’s wrong (which is true).
Yeah you can't argue with logic and reason of the other side does not accept this language and is always acting in bad faith. Engaging fascists civilly is always helping them gain ground. But not engaging with them becomes more difficult the more mind share they gain. How should not engaging look in practice? All of politics and media would need to stop giving them a platform at once. And again this is something we regular people don't really have in our hands at all.
-
I agree, especially in the sense that the other is also part of our society. I think it also helps to remind people in the end we are all sharing the political system that is our democracy.
Yeah I also believe that good communication is key. Communication with everyone we might even strongly disagree with, as long as they are not actually beyond that in their beliefs and are just mislead or uninformed etc., but well-meaning. Such people need to be somehow included and heard and not pushed away into the arms of the extremists...
-
Exactly, we need to act with the future in mind, we gotta reinforce the barricades, as it were. At the very least, and at most for the time being. And we really gotta agree upon a system. Like, any humane and empathy-driven system, it doesn't all have to be perfect in the first try. It has to be at least functional enough to buy ourselves more time for the detailing.
And we'll also have to keep in mind to pull double-duty on handling the almost literal dumpster fire heading our way, although a saner climate may be aligned with a generally sane direction from the start.
How I wish our societies could get there. Agree on a humane and empathy driven system, as you say. Maybe imperfect, but practically feasible and pragmatic. Idealistic in spirit, but not naive. Friendly, but with teeth if provoked. Something that can survive in this world and still be a good place for everyone, without illusions but also without cynicism and hypocrisy.
-
Fix wealth inequality. Rich people accumulate so much money that there's hardly any left for average people. Rich people hoard assets like houses and increase their prices and the cost of living. As long as we don't fix this, things will get worse. As long as politicians don't fix this other parties will get more popular no matter what they offer.
Migrants are just scapegoats. They have no lobby, they are easy to blame. They are one piece in a bigger equation. They are used as a ruse to distract from bigger problems. If the housing market was functional it could handle the influx of Ukranian refugees and the way smaller number of refugees from countries like Afghanistan or regions like Africa.
If countries had funds from wealth and inheritance taxes they could fund a working administration, faster justice systems, working infrastructure and so on. It would be absolutely beautiful and I cannot say why there isn't a bigger movement for that solution.
It's not about taxing 100.000€ in stock, or you inheriting your mum's cottage, but about taxing people who have been living off intergenerational wealth for decades without ever working at all.
Yes to all but you're missing a crucial piece for completeness - the wealth consolidated at the top buys state power which then helps distribute even more wealth to the top. As long as this feedback loop is allowed to run, none of the other proposed solutions would help. For example, education is amended to teach people to support the feedback loop, not break it.
What does this mean in practice? Actively participate in your union, unionize, vote for economic left parties that support unionization and breaking the wealth inequality loop.
-
That's the only solution.
Only if you solve wealth inequality, the other proposed solutions become effective in keeping inequality low. If you don't solve wealth inequality, they're rendered ineffective by the accumulated wealth.
-
Communication is key, we can take lessons from USA. Their left wing tries to dehumanise their right wing. This backfired tremendously.
So, what we should do would be simply communicate with eachother.
The part that differentiate social democracy from Marxist Leninists is that we do not try to silence people.
You really think the American left dehumanises republican voters?
Let's see: Democrats exclusively talk about "crossing the aisle" and bipartisanship. Bernie Sanders excessively highlights the importance of protecting low income middle Americans who work(ed) in manufacturing and other sectors that lean Republican voters, while trying to sneak in some "also no, minorities aren't evil" rhetoric.
Old school GOP says gays are sinners, new school GOP/MAGA calls transgender folks pedophiles, liberals communist unemployed rioters, and ethnic minorities "freeloaders who should go back to their countries".
What a load of shit saying that the American left wing is to blame for "dehumanising" the right wing. I don't think the way to fight extreme far-right ideology that is currently, actively supporting horrible shit is to pamper them and call them angels and ignore the shit they're doing.
-
You really think the American left dehumanises republican voters?
Let's see: Democrats exclusively talk about "crossing the aisle" and bipartisanship. Bernie Sanders excessively highlights the importance of protecting low income middle Americans who work(ed) in manufacturing and other sectors that lean Republican voters, while trying to sneak in some "also no, minorities aren't evil" rhetoric.
Old school GOP says gays are sinners, new school GOP/MAGA calls transgender folks pedophiles, liberals communist unemployed rioters, and ethnic minorities "freeloaders who should go back to their countries".
What a load of shit saying that the American left wing is to blame for "dehumanising" the right wing. I don't think the way to fight extreme far-right ideology that is currently, actively supporting horrible shit is to pamper them and call them angels and ignore the shit they're doing.
There's a lot of people, at least online, that do not want to engage with the other.
For right wingers it's "lazy/snobby".
For left wingers it's "fascist/nazi/supremacist".
Those ad hominems derail the argumentation and worsen communication.
i'm not talking about the politicians, but the voters.
With social media it has been enlarged. Everyone goes to their own bubble and when someone shares a wrong thought, then that person gets removed from the bubble.
-
Fix wealth inequality. Rich people accumulate so much money that there's hardly any left for average people. Rich people hoard assets like houses and increase their prices and the cost of living. As long as we don't fix this, things will get worse. As long as politicians don't fix this other parties will get more popular no matter what they offer.
Migrants are just scapegoats. They have no lobby, they are easy to blame. They are one piece in a bigger equation. They are used as a ruse to distract from bigger problems. If the housing market was functional it could handle the influx of Ukranian refugees and the way smaller number of refugees from countries like Afghanistan or regions like Africa.
If countries had funds from wealth and inheritance taxes they could fund a working administration, faster justice systems, working infrastructure and so on. It would be absolutely beautiful and I cannot say why there isn't a bigger movement for that solution.
It's not about taxing 100.000€ in stock, or you inheriting your mum's cottage, but about taxing people who have been living off intergenerational wealth for decades without ever working at all.
I agree with you a 100% on the wealth issue. Though the number of migrants from the middle east is and will be more problematic for a small country like Austria.
Therefore you need to tackle both problems at once. I'm tired of people ignoring the fact. No country wants to become Libanon 2.0.
-
Fix wealth inequality. Rich people accumulate so much money that there's hardly any left for average people. Rich people hoard assets like houses and increase their prices and the cost of living. As long as we don't fix this, things will get worse. As long as politicians don't fix this other parties will get more popular no matter what they offer.
Migrants are just scapegoats. They have no lobby, they are easy to blame. They are one piece in a bigger equation. They are used as a ruse to distract from bigger problems. If the housing market was functional it could handle the influx of Ukranian refugees and the way smaller number of refugees from countries like Afghanistan or regions like Africa.
If countries had funds from wealth and inheritance taxes they could fund a working administration, faster justice systems, working infrastructure and so on. It would be absolutely beautiful and I cannot say why there isn't a bigger movement for that solution.
It's not about taxing 100.000€ in stock, or you inheriting your mum's cottage, but about taxing people who have been living off intergenerational wealth for decades without ever working at all.
And how would you fix wealth inequality, without causing capital flight.
-
100% unconditional intolerance for fascists. You can’t give them a millimeter or they’ll take the entire country.
I suggest watching Thought Slime’s recent video if you wish to know how to effectively counteract fascists.
The gist is that you shouldn’t try to argue with them, they don’t care about reality. Don’t let them look reasonable by arguing as if they were, insist on pointing out they’re being assholes (which they are) and that anything they suggest is so obviously wrong it doesn’t even need to be explained why it’s wrong (which is true).
The gist is that you shouldn’t try to argue with them, they don’t care about reality.
That may be true on a face to face level. In public, like on social media, it's essential to keep arguing. Not to convince the person you're arguing with, but to show other people reading that theirs is not the only perspective, nor is it the majority.
-
And how would you fix wealth inequality, without causing capital flight.
Capital can’t flee. The money is all bound in assets. How you gonna move the houses out of Europe?
China doesn’t allow me to own 100M USD worth of assets and live abroad without paying any tax. Why do we?
-
And how would you fix wealth inequality, without causing capital flight.
We pay for using that capital. We pay rent, we pay for groceries, we pay for gas. Everytime we pay something, somebody makes money. Tax them.
-
Communication is key, we can take lessons from USA. Their left wing tries to dehumanise their right wing. This backfired tremendously.
So, what we should do would be simply communicate with eachother.
The part that differentiate social democracy from Marxist Leninists is that we do not try to silence people.
Hahahaha, 'the left was mean to the right in the US and now Trump is very angry
, lets not do the same and directly give them power in Europe 🥰'I for too think the problem of US is there is too many Marxist Leninist in it... Damn Marxist Leninist they ruined it
-
Fix wealth inequality. Rich people accumulate so much money that there's hardly any left for average people. Rich people hoard assets like houses and increase their prices and the cost of living. As long as we don't fix this, things will get worse. As long as politicians don't fix this other parties will get more popular no matter what they offer.
Migrants are just scapegoats. They have no lobby, they are easy to blame. They are one piece in a bigger equation. They are used as a ruse to distract from bigger problems. If the housing market was functional it could handle the influx of Ukranian refugees and the way smaller number of refugees from countries like Afghanistan or regions like Africa.
If countries had funds from wealth and inheritance taxes they could fund a working administration, faster justice systems, working infrastructure and so on. It would be absolutely beautiful and I cannot say why there isn't a bigger movement for that solution.
It's not about taxing 100.000€ in stock, or you inheriting your mum's cottage, but about taxing people who have been living off intergenerational wealth for decades without ever working at all.
This is the number one thing. The US collapsed because of inequality. Liberals are out.
-
100% unconditional intolerance for fascists. You can’t give them a millimeter or they’ll take the entire country.
I suggest watching Thought Slime’s recent video if you wish to know how to effectively counteract fascists.
The gist is that you shouldn’t try to argue with them, they don’t care about reality. Don’t let them look reasonable by arguing as if they were, insist on pointing out they’re being assholes (which they are) and that anything they suggest is so obviously wrong it doesn’t even need to be explained why it’s wrong (which is true).
This just doesn't have a any connection with reality. You know what you suggest is what has been done for 20 years and it has massively failed? In basically all western countries? Learn from your mistakes or be an idiot.
Make sure that you understand materialism and solidarity grounded in self interest if you want to win the working class. Get rid of idealists and identity politics (unless they're working class or populist identity politics). Get your head around consequential ethics and how to set political priorities.
I recommend studying the 1930s strategy of the Swedish SAP.
-
There's a lot of people, at least online, that do not want to engage with the other.
For right wingers it's "lazy/snobby".
For left wingers it's "fascist/nazi/supremacist".
Those ad hominems derail the argumentation and worsen communication.
i'm not talking about the politicians, but the voters.
With social media it has been enlarged. Everyone goes to their own bubble and when someone shares a wrong thought, then that person gets removed from the bubble.
That's the laziest take imaginable with how much it's publicly known that foreign, hostile nations use bot farms (now with AI) and literal armies of trolls to foment anger and polarization online.
-
I agree with you a 100% on the wealth issue. Though the number of migrants from the middle east is and will be more problematic for a small country like Austria.
Therefore you need to tackle both problems at once. I'm tired of people ignoring the fact. No country wants to become Libanon 2.0.
No country wants to become Libanon 2.0.
What does that mean?
-
And how would you fix wealth inequality, without causing capital flight.
Facotries, houses and even companies can not be easily moved. Even something like a bank needs employees, with certain skills and those have value. You usually can not just move those to another country, unless something really drastic happens.
The other part is to organize. Something like the minimum company tax is a really good starting point. Most large countries have relativly high taxes anyway. The only reason tax heavens work is, because they have a tiny population and the few hundret jobs created by the paperwork are enough to support them. They could easily be bullied into having normal taxes.
Also keep in mind the EU has 1/5 of the global economy by itself.
-
The gist is that you shouldn’t try to argue with them, they don’t care about reality.
That may be true on a face to face level. In public, like on social media, it's essential to keep arguing. Not to convince the person you're arguing with, but to show other people reading that theirs is not the only perspective, nor is it the majority.
While you're right, it's incredibly frustrating when it's near-impossible to convince onlookers on how the fascists operate on complete bad faith and we really should just not give them any time of day at all and ban them
I've had great difficulties in convincing people to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt, leading to the fascists further exploiting it for their own gain
