How can progressive "European patriots" protect Europe from the right-populists who want to destroy Europe as we know it?
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That is what I wonder. Don't know about you guys, but I feel like a European patriot, even though this maybe does not make sense to some.
Being a true European patriot means to me is caring about our freedom and democracies, is to value the open pluralist societies we developed since WW2, wanting to protect what the reactionaries want to take away from us all and want to lock us all up, back in small closed-minded nation-states we all come from, which will ultimately lick the boots of either US or China/Russia.
They are well organized, but what is the organization, the movement that fights against this ongoing attack on our shared values and mode of existence?
The post-WW2 Europe is an oasis of bliss in a world which is on fire, and we are all under attack. How can we fight against this destruction from the inside as well as from the outside ?
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System shared this topic
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That is what I wonder. Don't know about you guys, but I feel like a European patriot, even though this maybe does not make sense to some.
Being a true European patriot means to me is caring about our freedom and democracies, is to value the open pluralist societies we developed since WW2, wanting to protect what the reactionaries want to take away from us all and want to lock us all up, back in small closed-minded nation-states we all come from, which will ultimately lick the boots of either US or China/Russia.
They are well organized, but what is the organization, the movement that fights against this ongoing attack on our shared values and mode of existence?
The post-WW2 Europe is an oasis of bliss in a world which is on fire, and we are all under attack. How can we fight against this destruction from the inside as well as from the outside ?
Well, I think the first step is to talk about lobbyism, and who owns the media.
Maybe even try to talk about how to see the world in decades not years.
but it's hard... -
Well, I think the first step is to talk about lobbyism, and who owns the media.
Maybe even try to talk about how to see the world in decades not years. but it's hard...That's such a middling long game, though... My personal fear is that any potential long game just gives them the space to solidify their grip on the population, I think everyone needs to do/see something pretty much soon-ish to make them want to believe in the rational alternative.
We're entering tumultuous times in terms of emotional load, everyone is nearing desperation at an alarming rate. That's a dangerous playground to reach.
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That is what I wonder. Don't know about you guys, but I feel like a European patriot, even though this maybe does not make sense to some.
Being a true European patriot means to me is caring about our freedom and democracies, is to value the open pluralist societies we developed since WW2, wanting to protect what the reactionaries want to take away from us all and want to lock us all up, back in small closed-minded nation-states we all come from, which will ultimately lick the boots of either US or China/Russia.
They are well organized, but what is the organization, the movement that fights against this ongoing attack on our shared values and mode of existence?
The post-WW2 Europe is an oasis of bliss in a world which is on fire, and we are all under attack. How can we fight against this destruction from the inside as well as from the outside ?
It's important to recognize an individual can not move a mountain, so it's important not to get discouraged because you do not see tangible progress nationally. All politics is a grinding trench fight to wait for an opportunity to enact laws.
With that said, the very minimum thing any citizen should do is vote. Vote in local election, vote in federal election, vote in EU election.
Next is attend your local party meeting of your preference. Just showing up and listening shows that there is interest to the politicians.
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That's such a middling long game, though... My personal fear is that any potential long game just gives them the space to solidify their grip on the population, I think everyone needs to do/see something pretty much soon-ish to make them want to believe in the rational alternative.
We're entering tumultuous times in terms of emotional load, everyone is nearing desperation at an alarming rate. That's a dangerous playground to reach.
The far right have been long-gaming the entire time. That is why they were able to act strategically and shift the discourse and ideas towards them step by step.
So yes we need to do something now, but it needs to break out of the short term thinking of "just this election", which also makes many supposedly progressive parties move hard to the right, idiotically believing they would win by copying the far-rights positions. Instead what we see is a further rise of it.
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The far right have been long-gaming the entire time. That is why they were able to act strategically and shift the discourse and ideas towards them step by step.
So yes we need to do something now, but it needs to break out of the short term thinking of "just this election", which also makes many supposedly progressive parties move hard to the right, idiotically believing they would win by copying the far-rights positions. Instead what we see is a further rise of it.
Exactly, we need to act with the future in mind, we gotta reinforce the barricades, as it were. At the very least, and at most for the time being. And we really gotta agree upon a system. Like, any humane and empathy-driven system, it doesn't all have to be perfect in the first try. It has to be at least functional enough to buy ourselves more time for the detailing.
And we'll also have to keep in mind to pull double-duty on handling the almost literal dumpster fire heading our way, although a saner climate may be aligned with a generally sane direction from the start.
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That is what I wonder. Don't know about you guys, but I feel like a European patriot, even though this maybe does not make sense to some.
Being a true European patriot means to me is caring about our freedom and democracies, is to value the open pluralist societies we developed since WW2, wanting to protect what the reactionaries want to take away from us all and want to lock us all up, back in small closed-minded nation-states we all come from, which will ultimately lick the boots of either US or China/Russia.
They are well organized, but what is the organization, the movement that fights against this ongoing attack on our shared values and mode of existence?
The post-WW2 Europe is an oasis of bliss in a world which is on fire, and we are all under attack. How can we fight against this destruction from the inside as well as from the outside ?
100% unconditional intolerance for fascists. You can’t give them a millimeter or they’ll take the entire country.
I suggest watching Thought Slime’s recent video if you wish to know how to effectively counteract fascists.
The gist is that you shouldn’t try to argue with them, they don’t care about reality. Don’t let them look reasonable by arguing as if they were, insist on pointing out they’re being assholes (which they are) and that anything they suggest is so obviously wrong it doesn’t even need to be explained why it’s wrong (which is true).
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That is what I wonder. Don't know about you guys, but I feel like a European patriot, even though this maybe does not make sense to some.
Being a true European patriot means to me is caring about our freedom and democracies, is to value the open pluralist societies we developed since WW2, wanting to protect what the reactionaries want to take away from us all and want to lock us all up, back in small closed-minded nation-states we all come from, which will ultimately lick the boots of either US or China/Russia.
They are well organized, but what is the organization, the movement that fights against this ongoing attack on our shared values and mode of existence?
The post-WW2 Europe is an oasis of bliss in a world which is on fire, and we are all under attack. How can we fight against this destruction from the inside as well as from the outside ?
Communication is key, we can take lessons from USA. Their left wing tries to dehumanise their right wing. This backfired tremendously.
So, what we should do would be simply communicate with eachother.
The part that differentiate social democracy from Marxist Leninists is that we do not try to silence people.
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Communication is key, we can take lessons from USA. Their left wing tries to dehumanise their right wing. This backfired tremendously.
So, what we should do would be simply communicate with eachother.
The part that differentiate social democracy from Marxist Leninists is that we do not try to silence people.
I agree, especially in the sense that the other is also part of our society. I think it also helps to remind people in the end we are all sharing the political system that is our democracy.
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That is what I wonder. Don't know about you guys, but I feel like a European patriot, even though this maybe does not make sense to some.
Being a true European patriot means to me is caring about our freedom and democracies, is to value the open pluralist societies we developed since WW2, wanting to protect what the reactionaries want to take away from us all and want to lock us all up, back in small closed-minded nation-states we all come from, which will ultimately lick the boots of either US or China/Russia.
They are well organized, but what is the organization, the movement that fights against this ongoing attack on our shared values and mode of existence?
The post-WW2 Europe is an oasis of bliss in a world which is on fire, and we are all under attack. How can we fight against this destruction from the inside as well as from the outside ?
Fix wealth inequality. Rich people accumulate so much money that there's hardly any left for average people. Rich people hoard assets like houses and increase their prices and the cost of living. As long as we don't fix this, things will get worse. As long as politicians don't fix this other parties will get more popular no matter what they offer.
Migrants are just scapegoats. They have no lobby, they are easy to blame. They are one piece in a bigger equation. They are used as a ruse to distract from bigger problems. If the housing market was functional it could handle the influx of Ukranian refugees and the way smaller number of refugees from countries like Afghanistan or regions like Africa.
If countries had funds from wealth and inheritance taxes they could fund a working administration, faster justice systems, working infrastructure and so on. It would be absolutely beautiful and I cannot say why there isn't a bigger movement for that solution.
It's not about taxing 100.000€ in stock, or you inheriting your mum's cottage, but about taxing people who have been living off intergenerational wealth for decades without ever working at all.
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Fix wealth inequality. Rich people accumulate so much money that there's hardly any left for average people. Rich people hoard assets like houses and increase their prices and the cost of living. As long as we don't fix this, things will get worse. As long as politicians don't fix this other parties will get more popular no matter what they offer.
Migrants are just scapegoats. They have no lobby, they are easy to blame. They are one piece in a bigger equation. They are used as a ruse to distract from bigger problems. If the housing market was functional it could handle the influx of Ukranian refugees and the way smaller number of refugees from countries like Afghanistan or regions like Africa.
If countries had funds from wealth and inheritance taxes they could fund a working administration, faster justice systems, working infrastructure and so on. It would be absolutely beautiful and I cannot say why there isn't a bigger movement for that solution.
It's not about taxing 100.000€ in stock, or you inheriting your mum's cottage, but about taxing people who have been living off intergenerational wealth for decades without ever working at all.
That's the only solution.
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That is what I wonder. Don't know about you guys, but I feel like a European patriot, even though this maybe does not make sense to some.
Being a true European patriot means to me is caring about our freedom and democracies, is to value the open pluralist societies we developed since WW2, wanting to protect what the reactionaries want to take away from us all and want to lock us all up, back in small closed-minded nation-states we all come from, which will ultimately lick the boots of either US or China/Russia.
They are well organized, but what is the organization, the movement that fights against this ongoing attack on our shared values and mode of existence?
The post-WW2 Europe is an oasis of bliss in a world which is on fire, and we are all under attack. How can we fight against this destruction from the inside as well as from the outside ?
Push for more european countries to pass proportional representation to strengthen their state stability and democracy.
The countries that have some form of pr are coloured:
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That's the only solution.
But we could also try fascism again. Maybe it works this time.
/s
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That is what I wonder. Don't know about you guys, but I feel like a European patriot, even though this maybe does not make sense to some.
Being a true European patriot means to me is caring about our freedom and democracies, is to value the open pluralist societies we developed since WW2, wanting to protect what the reactionaries want to take away from us all and want to lock us all up, back in small closed-minded nation-states we all come from, which will ultimately lick the boots of either US or China/Russia.
They are well organized, but what is the organization, the movement that fights against this ongoing attack on our shared values and mode of existence?
The post-WW2 Europe is an oasis of bliss in a world which is on fire, and we are all under attack. How can we fight against this destruction from the inside as well as from the outside ?
Long term? Education: a broadly based, liberal education that makes the shared values understood and appreciated by most people, on the basis of good evidence, morality and reason. Without this, if everyone is taught and believes different, conflicting ideas, then there are no shared values to defend. Many organizations are involved but most significant are families, schools, colleges, universities, religious organizations and the media.
Short term? Justice, law and order that balances personal and collective interests. Without this, people will live in fear and desperation with immediate survival concerns being a priority over getting or giving a good education or making any personal sacrifice for the benefit of society. Also, sufficient resources for everyone so that no one is living in desperation and insecurity. This requires, among other things, preventing extremes of inequality of wealth and power. Not the elimination of inequality, but limiting and moderating it so that tyranny and jealous desperation are avoided. Again there are many organizations involved but most significant are the legislatures, courts, police and military.
Transparency and oversight are required for all these organizations, to ensure they are doing what they should, and freedom of thought and communication so that their behaviour, virtues and faults can be discovered, communicated, discussed and controlled. Whistleblowers and protections for them, and the media.
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But we could also try fascism again. Maybe it works this time.
/s
Nobody is really trying to stop the oligarchs and their lobbies, it's the only real political taboo that remains. People watch the right rising and it's being shown as if that was coming out of nowhere and too unregulated capitalism wasn't the main driver of the issue. The occasional article points out that billionaires should not have so much power or even exist, but these are drowned in the noise of the media.
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100% unconditional intolerance for fascists. You can’t give them a millimeter or they’ll take the entire country.
I suggest watching Thought Slime’s recent video if you wish to know how to effectively counteract fascists.
The gist is that you shouldn’t try to argue with them, they don’t care about reality. Don’t let them look reasonable by arguing as if they were, insist on pointing out they’re being assholes (which they are) and that anything they suggest is so obviously wrong it doesn’t even need to be explained why it’s wrong (which is true).
Yeah you can't argue with logic and reason of the other side does not accept this language and is always acting in bad faith. Engaging fascists civilly is always helping them gain ground. But not engaging with them becomes more difficult the more mind share they gain. How should not engaging look in practice? All of politics and media would need to stop giving them a platform at once. And again this is something we regular people don't really have in our hands at all.
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I agree, especially in the sense that the other is also part of our society. I think it also helps to remind people in the end we are all sharing the political system that is our democracy.
Yeah I also believe that good communication is key. Communication with everyone we might even strongly disagree with, as long as they are not actually beyond that in their beliefs and are just mislead or uninformed etc., but well-meaning. Such people need to be somehow included and heard and not pushed away into the arms of the extremists...
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Exactly, we need to act with the future in mind, we gotta reinforce the barricades, as it were. At the very least, and at most for the time being. And we really gotta agree upon a system. Like, any humane and empathy-driven system, it doesn't all have to be perfect in the first try. It has to be at least functional enough to buy ourselves more time for the detailing.
And we'll also have to keep in mind to pull double-duty on handling the almost literal dumpster fire heading our way, although a saner climate may be aligned with a generally sane direction from the start.
How I wish our societies could get there. Agree on a humane and empathy driven system, as you say. Maybe imperfect, but practically feasible and pragmatic. Idealistic in spirit, but not naive. Friendly, but with teeth if provoked. Something that can survive in this world and still be a good place for everyone, without illusions but also without cynicism and hypocrisy.
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Fix wealth inequality. Rich people accumulate so much money that there's hardly any left for average people. Rich people hoard assets like houses and increase their prices and the cost of living. As long as we don't fix this, things will get worse. As long as politicians don't fix this other parties will get more popular no matter what they offer.
Migrants are just scapegoats. They have no lobby, they are easy to blame. They are one piece in a bigger equation. They are used as a ruse to distract from bigger problems. If the housing market was functional it could handle the influx of Ukranian refugees and the way smaller number of refugees from countries like Afghanistan or regions like Africa.
If countries had funds from wealth and inheritance taxes they could fund a working administration, faster justice systems, working infrastructure and so on. It would be absolutely beautiful and I cannot say why there isn't a bigger movement for that solution.
It's not about taxing 100.000€ in stock, or you inheriting your mum's cottage, but about taxing people who have been living off intergenerational wealth for decades without ever working at all.
Yes to all but you're missing a crucial piece for completeness - the wealth consolidated at the top buys state power which then helps distribute even more wealth to the top. As long as this feedback loop is allowed to run, none of the other proposed solutions would help. For example, education is amended to teach people to support the feedback loop, not break it.
What does this mean in practice? Actively participate in your union, unionize, vote for economic left parties that support unionization and breaking the wealth inequality loop.
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That's the only solution.
Only if you solve wealth inequality, the other proposed solutions become effective in keeping inequality low. If you don't solve wealth inequality, they're rendered ineffective by the accumulated wealth.
