Immigrants in most countries are required to pledge allegiance to their adopted country to become exempt from deportation (aka: Attaining Citizenship Status); What do you think of this practice?
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
I think the idea of national states is utterly silly and should be abolished. Just look at the maps and how many straight lines they have, there is nothing natural or normal about those artificial lines of most countries.
On top of it nationalists use national states, which contain highly diverse groups of people, to make them to go to war against their neighbors by telling them lies about how they all are some special group.
As an example, is there anything a Bavarian has more in common with a person from Schleswig-Holstein compared to his neighbor from Austria? It's not culture, nor language, not even blood. It's only artificial things like the football national team, laws, taxes, etc.
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
Allegiance to a country is such a nonsensical concept anyway. What is inferred is an allegiance to a government. A government is delimited by time, so in theory you should need to reaffirm your allegiance each voting cycle. Furthermore, what does allegiance encompass? I do not know of a single government I would align myself so deeply with, that I would go to war for it for example. That doesn't mean I dont like my country.
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I think the idea of national states is utterly silly and should be abolished. Just look at the maps and how many straight lines they have, there is nothing natural or normal about those artificial lines of most countries.
On top of it nationalists use national states, which contain highly diverse groups of people, to make them to go to war against their neighbors by telling them lies about how they all are some special group.
As an example, is there anything a Bavarian has more in common with a person from Schleswig-Holstein compared to his neighbor from Austria? It's not culture, nor language, not even blood. It's only artificial things like the football national team, laws, taxes, etc.
Just look at the maps and how many straight lines they have, there is nothing natural or normal about those artificial lines of most countries.
You'd need more war to solve that. In Europe, borders usually run along a natural defensible lines, like rivers and mountains.
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I think the idea of national states is utterly silly and should be abolished. Just look at the maps and how many straight lines they have, there is nothing natural or normal about those artificial lines of most countries.
On top of it nationalists use national states, which contain highly diverse groups of people, to make them to go to war against their neighbors by telling them lies about how they all are some special group.
As an example, is there anything a Bavarian has more in common with a person from Schleswig-Holstein compared to his neighbor from Austria? It's not culture, nor language, not even blood. It's only artificial things like the football national team, laws, taxes, etc.
I keep thinking that, but then I think in a much more universal sense. Different countries allows different types of policies to be battle tested and we can find out which ones actually best.
I keep flipping between "conflict is fucking stupid we should be better than this by now" and "we need constant war with ourselves to keep improving for survival incase aliens."
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
I said the words and didn't pay them any mind
I couldn't tell you what was said during my citizenship ceremony
I did mine naked from the waist down. (covid times, so it was Skype)
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
wrote last edited by [email protected]Meh. I don’t think it’s a big ask to gain citizenship someplace. Obviously I’m getting something out of it, that’s why I’m applying
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I think the idea of national states is utterly silly and should be abolished. Just look at the maps and how many straight lines they have, there is nothing natural or normal about those artificial lines of most countries.
On top of it nationalists use national states, which contain highly diverse groups of people, to make them to go to war against their neighbors by telling them lies about how they all are some special group.
As an example, is there anything a Bavarian has more in common with a person from Schleswig-Holstein compared to his neighbor from Austria? It's not culture, nor language, not even blood. It's only artificial things like the football national team, laws, taxes, etc.
I think the idea of national states is utterly silly and should be abolished.
Perhaps...
But like it or not, states are the current reality, because being stateless is really a bad idea.
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
Yes it's a reasonable request, but it's also pretty meaningless.
It's performative. Like if you break this pledge nothing happens.
However, it's performative in the same way that a marriage is really. I mean you can go to the court house and register your marriage without having a ceremony, but that's very uncommon and in the vast majority of cases you have a ceremony and do all the things.
Achieving citizenship is an important moment in anyone's life. If your own case for example your Mother's citizenship ceremony marked the point at which the work to change the trajectory of her life and all of her descendants had achieved the objective.
A little pomp and ceremony doesn't hurt.
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Just look at the maps and how many straight lines they have, there is nothing natural or normal about those artificial lines of most countries.
You'd need more war to solve that. In Europe, borders usually run along a natural defensible lines, like rivers and mountains.
Or battle lines: Belgium netherlands
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
It's a meaningless formality.
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
Citizenship is different than residency. A citizen has roles and responsibilities beyond that of a resident. I don't think it is that unreasonable to ask a naturalized citizen to be loyal to their new country.
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
It's a little tradition and a bit of a promise, even though vague and breakable if we're honest.
I wouldn't have done that personally, I would've had it required that immigrants sign a doctrine as to whether the immigrant is going to uphold the laws of the country they're migrating. Failing to do so would be automatic deportation.
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
Totally acceptable. Then again, if the world went the way of Starship Troopers, I would be one of the masses like Johnny's parents.
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Meh. I don’t think it’s a big ask to gain citizenship someplace. Obviously I’m getting something out of it, that’s why I’m applying
That's like saying it's not a big ask to become a part of some random family.
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Citizenship is different than residency. A citizen has roles and responsibilities beyond that of a resident. I don't think it is that unreasonable to ask a naturalized citizen to be loyal to their new country.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Then should it no longer be automatic for people who were just born there, or to citizen parents, as the case may be?
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
wrote last edited by [email protected]It's silly. The oath means nothing (particularly if it's to a British socialite like it is here) which is wrong for an oath.
Allegiance to countries should be earned by that country anyway, not demanded or unconditional.
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It's silly. The oath means nothing (particularly if it's to a British socialite like it is here) which is wrong for an oath.
Allegiance to countries should be earned by that country anyway, not demanded or unconditional.
wrote last edited by [email protected]unconditional
I mean it is conditional.
I see it as a "social contract". The state/society gives me a status and certain protections, in exchange for me promising not to be a terrorist, spy, etc... that's essentially what I see it as.
If the state/society start treating me like some foreigner, then I'd consider them violating their "end of the bargain", aka: it's them violating the social contract and I'd act accordingly.
If they pull the Japanese-American "Internment Camp" bullshit on me, don't expect me to have any "allegiance" lmao
As an example: PRC tried to "terminate" me for being the second-born, because they wanted to fullfill their fantasy of a "birth control" and forced sterilization policy, and also they tried to deny giving the legal papers proving I exist until their BS "fines" got paid (meaning, essentially: I didn't legally "exist" for the first few years of my life), not to mention, the various fucked up things regarding censorship, cant even playing a fucking online game, so yea I have zero "allegiance" with the PRC. In fact, I dispise PRC.
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I think the idea of national states is utterly silly and should be abolished. Just look at the maps and how many straight lines they have, there is nothing natural or normal about those artificial lines of most countries.
On top of it nationalists use national states, which contain highly diverse groups of people, to make them to go to war against their neighbors by telling them lies about how they all are some special group.
As an example, is there anything a Bavarian has more in common with a person from Schleswig-Holstein compared to his neighbor from Austria? It's not culture, nor language, not even blood. It's only artificial things like the football national team, laws, taxes, etc.
You'd still need some sort of local government that reflects local values. The same set of laws applied to the whole world would cause instant war
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Then should it no longer be automatic for people who were just born there, or to citizen parents, as the case may be?
In the US, children are made to participate in the pledge of allegiance daily at school. To answer your question more broadly, in many cases, if a citizen commits certain crimes against a country, then it is considered treason. Maybe it's considered that a citizen born in the country understands that, but someone naturalising must acknowledge it.
