And nothing of value was lost
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Are you incapable of fighting someone you consider human?
I consider Nazis human, and id 100% get in a fight with them.
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It's literally the one message every old European used to preach to us younger generations back in the day. I remember how important it was to them to make us understand that the minute we start dehumanizing people we don't like, we are repeating the cycle.
It is why movies like Der Untergang exists. We have to understand that the most despicable people who ever lived were still human beings and much closer to ourselves than we like to think.
I have carried with me, my whole life the knowledge that I am fallible and I am capable of evil no matter how good of a person I think I am. To a lesser extent, every time I have thought I was too clever to fall for x, y and z, that's when I have fallen right into it. "I would never end up in an abusive relationship. I have too much self respect for that"
"I'm far too strong to become the doormat in this and that friendship" "I'll never fall for fake information online. I'm too observant" I could never trust myself to believe I would be too smart, kind or principled to not fall into a destructive and abusive pattern of behavior if the circumstances are twisted just right. I think more people would benefit if they reminded themselves of their imperfections and got off their high horses. On Lemmy alone I have encountered far too many holier than thou types who are super duper anti fascist but ironically act exactly like fascists, but to them it doesn't count because they are "on the right side of history".
Am I sad that some nazi KKK guy died? No. But he was human. Most likely a very terrible human, but still human.
I do agree with almost everything you wrote, but I don't understand the moral consequence. One do not have to think they're too smart or too pure to take some kind of solace from the fact that there's one less fascist walking the earth.
To me, that has nothing to do with being "better" as a human. It's just that their project means my/our death. The more they grow, the more we die and vice versa. I do not dehumanize them nor do I think they're stupid or deserve anything.
It's as simple as : the more they grow, the more anything I care for will wither away.
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You sound like an idiot
I don’t believe they are the same species as me. They have devolved to the point where their brains lack empathy, a distinctly human trait.
-You
The subhuman is a biological creature, crafted by nature, which has hands, legs, eyes and mouth, even the semblance of a brain. Nevertheless, this terrible creature is only a partial human being. Although it has features similar to a human, the subhuman is lower on the spiritual and psychological scale than any animal. Inside this being is a cruel chaos of wild, unrestrained passions, nameless desire for destruction, the most primitive desires, the most naked meanness
-Der Untermenshen, Nazi propaganda pamphlet circa 1942
You sound like a Nazi.
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It doesn't really matter if we think they're people. It doesn't really matter if they are. We (all the worthy humans) should treat them as non people.
I can't see a negative here beyond false identification. If there was an objective, without a doubt way to measure if someone was a Nazi, I would support genociding them (and only them). Proactively. It should simply be as illegal to just be a Nazi on the same level as it would be to murder an entire country's population.
Turns out that is either impossible or we're millions of years from figuring out how to do that safely (safe in terms of not harming non Nazis). But the minute we do I'd be on board with punishing them for daring to be born. There is no world of timeline in which being Nazi isn't worthy of immediate execution.
But since all of that is a pipe dream, in the mean time we can at least celebrate when they get taken out naturally. I wouldn't like rub it in the family's face (unless they were Nazis as well) or anything, but I'm definitely not even gonna act sad about it. The more pain they feel as they die, the harder I laugh. Tough lessons suck to learn. Sorry NOT sorry.
As a last note, I think that would be the better world, and it would be defending ourselves from their existence, which is a threat to everyone. As long as that idea is still in someone's head, no one is safe.
I'm not trying to defend them. I'm trying to point out that you're not defending yourself from that idea. In a world where all the nazis have been genocided, that is a world that accepts genocide as a reasonable solution. That world will commit another genocide and sooner than you might think. Especially when you consider that it didn't start with nazism. There were confederates before them and there are zionists after them. If you accept one genocide then any other just has to find the right justifications. Recognizing human susceptibility to that idea is the first step in protecting yourself from it. If we fail to do so, the cycle will never end.
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I do agree with almost everything you wrote, but I don't understand the moral consequence. One do not have to think they're too smart or too pure to take some kind of solace from the fact that there's one less fascist walking the earth.
To me, that has nothing to do with being "better" as a human. It's just that their project means my/our death. The more they grow, the more we die and vice versa. I do not dehumanize them nor do I think they're stupid or deserve anything.
It's as simple as : the more they grow, the more anything I care for will wither away.
You're right, but it makes people uncomfortable so they don't want to agree with you.
This isn't like the economy. It IS a zero sum game. If they succeed, we lose. If they thrive in life, we lose. If they continue to live at all, we lose.
They can CHOOSE to come back to humanity, unlike their victims, but I won't give them any consideration as having value until they do.
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Sounds like a property crime.
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I don’t believe they are the same species as me. They have devolved to the point where their brains lack empathy, a distinctly human trait.
-You
The subhuman is a biological creature, crafted by nature, which has hands, legs, eyes and mouth, even the semblance of a brain. Nevertheless, this terrible creature is only a partial human being. Although it has features similar to a human, the subhuman is lower on the spiritual and psychological scale than any animal. Inside this being is a cruel chaos of wild, unrestrained passions, nameless desire for destruction, the most primitive desires, the most naked meanness
-Der Untermenshen, Nazi propaganda pamphlet circa 1942
You sound like a Nazi.
The difference, in my opinion, between Nazi ideology and believing Nazis not to be humans, is that one was a choice that someone made, and makes every day. The other was born a certain way and cannot change.
Bad choices = no moral value.
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You can celebrate their deaths all you want. But when you start dehumanizing them you're taking notes from their playbook. Be better than them.
Be better than them.
I am already better than them. I don't advocate for needless violence or aggression against people who have shown me neither.
However, I advocate for the use of deadly force against anyone who attempts to circumvent my rights and freedoms in an attempt to oppress or imprison me unjustly.
I won't forget they are human. If I would, that would make it much more difficult to explain why they had to die. An animal kills for survival. A beast kills for sport. A human kills for principle.
It's not about the death or act of killing, it's about sending a message. "I am here, and I refuse to submit to your unjust will."
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If this situation was reversed, MAGA would have raised $100k for her legal defense by now.
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The point isn't whether or not it is okay to fight nazis. The commenter only states that the guy who died is still a human even if we don't like him.
That is a fact. If we start dehumanizing people we don't like, we open ourselves up to becoming monsters no matter how justified we feel we are.
I struggle with this myself. I have a deep-seated disgust toward narcissists and emotionally, I do not consider them human beings. Rationally, I know that they are and that if I continue to refuse to accept that they are one of the countless aspects of humanity, I open myself up to my own narcissistic aspects, where I see an entire subsection of humanity as lesser than me, as pests instead of human beings with a severe personality disorder that most likely came from repeated childhood neglect and abuse.
It is okay to feel strong negative emotions toward people we don't like, but we cannot allow ourselves to dehumanizing them because that is how we become monsters ourselves.
Empathy is hard because it isn't always the easiest or most comfortable path. It can feel downright injust at times, but that is all emotions talking. The more we think about it, truly reflect on it, the more we will understand that choosing empathy over emotional outbursts, will serve us and society far better in the long run. But it is fucking difficult.
Choices where you harm or oppress others for your own benefit means losing your humanity.
I will not be strong armed into giving moral weight to people whose entire existence revolves around subjugating and hurting people.
Just because someone is biologically human, does not mean they deserve any consideration from me. Context is king, and if you're a shit person, you can die. I'm so done with pussy fitting around these fuckwads and letting them own everything just because we don't want to be mean to them.
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You are right. If we exclude any population from rehabilitation, we exclude ourselves.
Until they are rehabilitated though, I will treat them as maggots. Being human does not automatically grant you untouchability for your actions. It doesn't absolve you of your sins. It does not mean anyone around you must tolerate your continued existence.
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Not going to downvote but no I sharply disagree.
Nazi lives don't matter. The paradox of tolerance goes both ways. Do not tolerate the intolerant.
Btw this story was in May 2018 and sadly is not from a recent event (Nazis regime is now in the white house)
Nazi lives don't matter. The paradox of tolerance goes both ways. Do not tolerate the intolerant.
It's not even a paradox. Being tolerant means allowing things you disagree with, but only up to a point.
It is fallacy to think that if we are intolerant to intolerance, we then become intolerant, thus defeating our own tolerance.
A fallacy mostly promoted by right-wingers.
The problem I have is that, although we shouldn't tolerate Nazis, treating their deaths in car accidents as a non-event at best, or a national holiday at worst, does feel like moving toward the same dehumanising treatment that Nazis give to those they hate.
I don't like it.
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On the vehicular manslaughter sure, on drunk driving charges, I should hope not. Sure this time a Nazi scumbag who deserves to die was killed, but next time it might be someone wholely innocent. Just because we hate the victim doesn't mean what she did wasn't reckless.
If we are taking it seriously, that lady is lucky to be alive let alone able to open a car door at a BAC of .42. Secondly if she was at a .42 and looked that well put together when they let her out of the drunk tank the next morning it's just not fair.
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The difference, in my opinion, between Nazi ideology and believing Nazis not to be humans, is that one was a choice that someone made, and makes every day. The other was born a certain way and cannot change.
Bad choices = no moral value.
I think the idea that some people are subhuman has been abused a lot, most notably by the Nazis, and society is better off without that kind of thinking regardless of the context. We need to accept that these are people, just like us. We need to figure out what made them that way so we can stop making the same mistakes.
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The difference, in my opinion, between Nazi ideology and believing Nazis not to be humans, is that one was a choice that someone made, and makes every day. The other was born a certain way and cannot change.
Bad choices = no moral value.
Some Nazis were raised. They believe what they believe because their parents were Nazis.
Some of them do leave that way of thinking, but it is not easy.
Do not treat people like things, just because you think they are irredeemable.
That is what Nazis do.
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You're arguing against things I did not say nor imply. I have made no argument here against self defense nor for civility.
I am abiding the paradox of tolerance by not tolerating dehumanizing rhetoric. Because I believe that rhetoric enables fascism.
No, you're just trying to shame people celebarating bad people no longer being bad people. Congratulations on utterly failing to understand what I said at all.
You are failing to understand the ugly reality of the paradox of tolerance. It is a paradox NOT for where it starts, but for where it ends. If you cannot even celebrate demonstrably horrible ideologies taking losses, then again, you are FAILING the paradox of tolerance.
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I'm glad to see cannibalistic humanoid underground dwellers is making a comeback
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some people do their best work when drunk
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I do agree with almost everything you wrote, but I don't understand the moral consequence. One do not have to think they're too smart or too pure to take some kind of solace from the fact that there's one less fascist walking the earth.
To me, that has nothing to do with being "better" as a human. It's just that their project means my/our death. The more they grow, the more we die and vice versa. I do not dehumanize them nor do I think they're stupid or deserve anything.
It's as simple as : the more they grow, the more anything I care for will wither away.
All that was said was that they are still human. Even if we dislike them. That is all. I find it interesting how defensive people are being about acknowledging that a terrible person is still a person.
If we stop acknowledging a bad person as a being a person, we have become what we hate. Its got nothing to do with caring or not caring about a kkk member dying. All we have reacted to was the claim that the guy wasn't a human. That is the dangerous part.
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I approve of her driving skills
