I may swear like a pirate, but I'm a fucking PRINCIPLED pirate
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The post suggests that profanity is harmless because it is not as destructive as slurs or dehumanizing language. That comparison is flawed. Swearing may not carry the same moral weight as racism or bigotry, but that does not make it “good.” An act being less wrong than another does not make it right. Killing in self-defense is not celebrated as morally pure, it is tolerated as the lesser evil in a tragic circumstance. Likewise, profanity may be tolerated as less harmful than hatred, but it still coarsens language and weakens self-discipline. To hold children to a higher standard, one should avoid both the greater and the lesser corruptions of speech.
That's dumb as shit.
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The post suggests that profanity is harmless because it is not as destructive as slurs or dehumanizing language. That comparison is flawed. Swearing may not carry the same moral weight as racism or bigotry, but that does not make it “good.” An act being less wrong than another does not make it right. Killing in self-defense is not celebrated as morally pure, it is tolerated as the lesser evil in a tragic circumstance. Likewise, profanity may be tolerated as less harmful than hatred, but it still coarsens language and weakens self-discipline. To hold children to a higher standard, one should avoid both the greater and the lesser corruptions of speech.
Get fucked.
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Unpopular opinion: profanity is massively overhyped and people that excessively swear tend to irk me. There are so many ways to passionately express emotion, at least in the English language, yet so many are fascinated with only a few. The word "fuck" in particular loses all gravitas after hearing it 150 times a day for most of my life. I've had to stop watching certain shows because swearing felt so excessively forced to perhaps come across as edgy, and it broke all immersion for me.
That's a popular opinion. I agree though, if you're going to swear, make it count. Bonus points for creativity, you fucking festering anal fistula
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A couple of nights ago I was in the car with my 8 year old daughter and Killing In The Name Of by Rage Against the Machine came on... my instinct was to skip to the next song, but then I thought "No, this is a song she needs to hear" because if she has questions she knows that she can ask.
A couple of songs later, it was Closer by NIN... I immediately skipped to the next song.
Oh no! Stinkfist came on!
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The post suggests that profanity is harmless because it is not as destructive as slurs or dehumanizing language. That comparison is flawed. Swearing may not carry the same moral weight as racism or bigotry, but that does not make it “good.” An act being less wrong than another does not make it right. Killing in self-defense is not celebrated as morally pure, it is tolerated as the lesser evil in a tragic circumstance. Likewise, profanity may be tolerated as less harmful than hatred, but it still coarsens language and weakens self-discipline. To hold children to a higher standard, one should avoid both the greater and the lesser corruptions of speech.
What a fucking dweeb posting a shittier post on a shitpost golf clap
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I'm sure you can see that term is intended to portray the person in a specific way.
No, it's just a normal term, intended to convey that the person is an immigrant, and that they didn't follow the legal process. Those are just the basic facts about that person's situation with respect to the law. The legality of their immigration status is often the focus of the discussion. For example, it's easy to take advantage of illegal immigrants because they might be afraid to go to the police due to their immigration status.
The term has been in use for almost 150 years. Sometimes clinical labels become pejorative over time. But, it doesn't seem like that's the case here. A right-winger is much more likely to say "illegals" or "illegal aliens", if not just using some slur like "wetback".
Alternative terms that have been proposed are much less precise. For example, "undocumented migrant" is horrible. Not only is "migrant" less specific than "immigrant", because immigration is a subset of migration, "undocumented" is much less accurate than "illegal". Most people in a country illegally have documentation, they have passports, birth certificates, sometimes even local driver's licenses. The issue isn't that they lack documentation. The issue is that they aren't following the laws related to migration. Others like "undocumented noncitizen" or "undocumented American" are even worse. What does "American" even mean in that context? Is a fiercely loyal British person who is legally in the US on a work visa a "documented American"?
Describing a person as an "illegal" immigrant is dehumanizing, given that only acts can be legal or illegal, not people.
"Undocumented" immigrant is the generally accepted term.
It doesn't really matter which you feel is the more accurate or better term. For all intents and purposes they have the same meaning, and one is clearly more dignified than the other.
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I mean, the words themselves are not an insult, it’s the context they are used in that make them an insult. If you don’t insult people then you don’t have to worry about what words are insults and what aren’t.
I don't really understand what you're getting at.
Obviously there are words which are in themselves an insult. There are also words which are not, and there's a spectrum of different words in between which are more insulting or less insulting or insulting in specific circumstances.
Undocumented migrant is clearly a more dignified way to describe someone than describing them as an "illegal" immigrant.
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A couple of nights ago I was in the car with my 8 year old daughter and Killing In The Name Of by Rage Against the Machine came on... my instinct was to skip to the next song, but then I thought "No, this is a song she needs to hear" because if she has questions she knows that she can ask.
A couple of songs later, it was Closer by NIN... I immediately skipped to the next song.
Hahaha, now next time you tell her to clean her room or something, she'll say "fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!"
Seriously, though, I think you made the right choice. Good on you, and it sounds like you've got good music tastes!
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Oh no! The evil people have all the commercially available flame throwers!
Flame thrower? Don't need that just a bottle of lighter fluid, a Bic, and a can of hairspray will do the trick. We call it the hick bee annihilator, my uncle nearly burnt down the garage when I was 2.
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I don't really understand what you're getting at.
Obviously there are words which are in themselves an insult. There are also words which are not, and there's a spectrum of different words in between which are more insulting or less insulting or insulting in specific circumstances.
Undocumented migrant is clearly a more dignified way to describe someone than describing them as an "illegal" immigrant.
There are some, but “illegal immigrant” isn’t. Calling someone a fucking idiot is an indult. Calling someone an illegal immigrant to their face can be an insult, but the words themselves are fine, it’s crazy how people are insulted by what is effectively a description. Not like idiot or moron which is obviously “tagging” someone with something they aren’t. Or calling someone an illegal immigtant when they aren’t just because you don’t like them. Undocumented migrant is fine for now, next thing you know even that’s not dignified enough. The same way retard became handicapped and suddenly out of nowhere handicap is not dignified enough, so it became disabled.
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Oh no! Stinkfist came on!
The ol' Stinkfist got some new exposure via Alien Earth's credits. A wiley crew, that Noah Hawley & team.
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You best start believing in lemmy shit posts, you're in one.
Praise be!
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I havent had an excuse to post this yet
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There are some, but “illegal immigrant” isn’t. Calling someone a fucking idiot is an indult. Calling someone an illegal immigrant to their face can be an insult, but the words themselves are fine, it’s crazy how people are insulted by what is effectively a description. Not like idiot or moron which is obviously “tagging” someone with something they aren’t. Or calling someone an illegal immigtant when they aren’t just because you don’t like them. Undocumented migrant is fine for now, next thing you know even that’s not dignified enough. The same way retard became handicapped and suddenly out of nowhere handicap is not dignified enough, so it became disabled.
Calling someone an illegal immigrant to their face can be an insult
So why would it be ok to refer to a person that way just because they're not around?
This meme is a commentary on how to teach kids to treat others in a dignified and respectful way.
The same way retard became handicapped and suddenly out of nowhere handicap is not dignified enough, so it became disabled.
That's true. The progression of language in this way is well documented. It doesn't diminish someone's entitlement to feel offended at being referred to as a retard. It's just how dignity, respect, and language works.
When referring to other people, it's a common courtesy to consider how they might like to be addressed, and to use that term. It doesn't matter how you feel about the phrasing or what you would have called them a few decades ago.
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Calling someone an illegal immigrant to their face can be an insult
So why would it be ok to refer to a person that way just because they're not around?
This meme is a commentary on how to teach kids to treat others in a dignified and respectful way.
The same way retard became handicapped and suddenly out of nowhere handicap is not dignified enough, so it became disabled.
That's true. The progression of language in this way is well documented. It doesn't diminish someone's entitlement to feel offended at being referred to as a retard. It's just how dignity, respect, and language works.
When referring to other people, it's a common courtesy to consider how they might like to be addressed, and to use that term. It doesn't matter how you feel about the phrasing or what you would have called them a few decades ago.
I agree with calling people what they want to be called, but most people don’t spend their days on lemmy and aren’t up to date with what people like being called. People should get used to be called the wrong thing, or wrong pronouns. If you specifically tell me you want to be want to be called a certain thing, I have no issues with that, but until you tell me that, you shouldn’t be offended that I call you what is effectively a description.
I personally have never heard anyone IRL say the words undocumented migrant, or even outside lemmy tbh, while illegal immigrant is obviously common. So by default, if I need to refer to these people, this is the term I’d have used, not intended as an insult.
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Describing a person as an "illegal" immigrant is dehumanizing, given that only acts can be legal or illegal, not people.
"Undocumented" immigrant is the generally accepted term.
It doesn't really matter which you feel is the more accurate or better term. For all intents and purposes they have the same meaning, and one is clearly more dignified than the other.
Describing a person as an "illegal" immigrant is dehumanizing
How so?
given that only acts can be legal or illegal, not people
Yes, that's why it's "illegal immigrant" not "illegal person".
"Undocumented" immigrant is the generally accepted term.
Among some people, among others it's "illegal immigrant". Undocumented is wrong, the people have documentation, they just don't have the legal right to reside where they do.
one is clearly more dignified than the other.
No, they're both equally dignified, you've just been snarfing down propaganda.
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I agree with calling people what they want to be called, but most people don’t spend their days on lemmy and aren’t up to date with what people like being called. People should get used to be called the wrong thing, or wrong pronouns. If you specifically tell me you want to be want to be called a certain thing, I have no issues with that, but until you tell me that, you shouldn’t be offended that I call you what is effectively a description.
I personally have never heard anyone IRL say the words undocumented migrant, or even outside lemmy tbh, while illegal immigrant is obviously common. So by default, if I need to refer to these people, this is the term I’d have used, not intended as an insult.
Just because you don't intend to insult someone doesn't mean you're not ignorant.
It doesn't take really any empathy at all to recognise that someone might prefer to be called an undocumented immigrant rather than an illegal one.
I think people really are used to being called the wrong thing, or the wrong pronouns. In reality, if you accidentally misgender someone they often won't bother to correct you if you're merely a passing acquaintance, but if you're more than that they might politely correct you in a non-confrontational way.
People being upset about someone making a genuine mistake and calling them the wrong thing is not the norm, and if someone did that it would be pretty weird.
The term "illegal immigrant" may be a description, but I'm sure you can recognise that it's not a very dignified one. You probably don't refer to people you like as "that fat guy" or "that woman with the huge ass", despite those phrases being descriptive.
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Just because you don't intend to insult someone doesn't mean you're not ignorant.
It doesn't take really any empathy at all to recognise that someone might prefer to be called an undocumented immigrant rather than an illegal one.
I think people really are used to being called the wrong thing, or the wrong pronouns. In reality, if you accidentally misgender someone they often won't bother to correct you if you're merely a passing acquaintance, but if you're more than that they might politely correct you in a non-confrontational way.
People being upset about someone making a genuine mistake and calling them the wrong thing is not the norm, and if someone did that it would be pretty weird.
The term "illegal immigrant" may be a description, but I'm sure you can recognise that it's not a very dignified one. You probably don't refer to people you like as "that fat guy" or "that woman with the huge ass", despite those phrases being descriptive.
That’s the problem. The interaction you describe is what happens IRL. On lemmy, or most of the “left” internet, it’s the total opposite, with people getting offended at the slightest misstep. Somehow being ignorant in some areas makes you evil or a jerk. People all have a limited amount of time to spend, and not everyone choses to spend that time learning all the politically correct ways to call people.
I also wouldn’t refer to someone as “an illegal immigrant” the same way I wouldn’t refer to them as “that fat man” because you just don’t refer to people that way. But I don’t have any issues talking about fat people, or illegal immigrants, in general. Or if it’s specific, it’ll probably be something like “John got deported last week because he was an illegal immigrant”. Not “get out of here you illegal immigrant”. Not that it sounds much worse than “get out of here you undocumented migrant.”
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I cant believe i have to explain this but...
There's lots of ways you can refer to people. Some are respectful, some are not.
This might shock you but some parents teach their kids to be respectful of others. Avoiding labelling people in ways they might not appreciate is a good start.
It may be a "fact" that someone is an "illegal immigrant" but I'm sure you can see that term is intended to portray the person in a specific way.
Its also a fact that such a person is an undocumented migrant trying to feed their family, or maybe even an asylum seekers fleeing persecution.
So yes, representing facts in a racist way is racist. Well done.
I will preface this by saying I do not agree with how this administration is enforcing immigration law, and triple disagree with how they are removing legal status from people to get easy deportations. It is being done both stupidly and cruelly. ICE should be uniformed and identifiable, and all law enforcement should be held to the highest standards.
That said, an asylum seeker is just that, an asylum seeker and not an illegal immigrant. Lumping them in with illegal immigrants to help whitewash illegal immigration is, in my opinion, as much a contributor to the problem as those claiming asylum seekers are lying. Both sides of this argument keep shoving the asylum seekers into the illegal immigrant bucket to serve their narratives and it pisses me off.
Obviously every person who illegally immigrates is doing so trying to feed themselves and/or their family better than they can in their own country, basically no one wakes up and decides to throw away their entire lives and legal status to go to another country. That does not mean laws don't apply to them. No one on earth has a right to go to another country except through the established legal means of that country, which is why statelessness is such a terrible crime against the people who are rendered such.
Lumping in illegal immigration with things like race and slurs and calling it racist waters down racist. Basic human dignity and respect for things that are intrinsic qualities like race, gender, sexuality, etc is not the same thing as someone's legal status. This doesn't stop the racists, doesn't help anyone, and weakens actual narrative.
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A couple of nights ago I was in the car with my 8 year old daughter and Killing In The Name Of by Rage Against the Machine came on... my instinct was to skip to the next song, but then I thought "No, this is a song she needs to hear" because if she has questions she knows that she can ask.
A couple of songs later, it was Closer by NIN... I immediately skipped to the next song.
My kid doesn't speak English, he is 5 (and Dutch), one day in the car I was playing "Pennywise - Fuck authority". He said that the man said fuck. Even if you're 5 and don't speak English you understand that the word fuck is a swearword.
