EU countries resist Spain on making Catalan official language
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As someone learning German right now, I can agree on complex but I'm not sure precise is very accurate. There seems to be a lot of assumptions based on context to know what one means. Maybe a more educated person could chime in, but I have not felt like the German language has made things more precise in communicating concepts (but full disclosure I'm at the A1 level going into A2).
Written German is incredibly precise, IMO (I have C2 German, teach it as a second language at a university in Germany, and am currently getting a masters degree in German instruction). I came from a background in legal writing in English, and the amount of references that each sentence after the first in a text needs to the sentence before it was still staggering. The grade on my first thesis paper was an unwelcome surprise, but it can be learned.
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Written German is incredibly precise, IMO (I have C2 German, teach it as a second language at a university in Germany, and am currently getting a masters degree in German instruction). I came from a background in legal writing in English, and the amount of references that each sentence after the first in a text needs to the sentence before it was still staggering. The grade on my first thesis paper was an unwelcome surprise, but it can be learned.
Just attempting to understand what you wrote here, are you saying that German writing requires a massive number of references to past statements to be understood and that somehow makes it more precise?
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Just attempting to understand what you wrote here, are you saying that German writing requires a massive number of references to past statements to be understood and that somehow makes it more precise?
Well, yes. I can write a series of sentences in English without building in references to explain exactly how they relate to each other, but German writing explicates their relationship to each other.
Thus there’s technically more vagueness in written English, though the reader makes the leap (if the writer is an effective communicator).
As a small example, I went back and forth about including “thus” in the above sentence. I don’t think it’s necessary even in formal, written English, but it would be in German.
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France, for instance, has a national policy against the recognition of domestic minority languages like Basque, Breton and Corsican.
Trying to give France the benefit of the doubt, but this just sounds like oppression. Is there a good reason France doesn't recognize minority languages in its territory?
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The EU pays for translators for Irish, which has less than 2 millions L2 speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language), Latvian with 1.5 millions speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_language), Maltese with less than 600,000 speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language).
Why wouldn't the EU pay for Catalan, which has 4 millions of L1 speakers, and 5 millions of L2 speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language)?
If the argument is "yes, but they are their own country", then that's just going to give ammunition to the Catalan independentists.
The argument seems to be "please, Spain, deal with your local seperatist movement without pushing those efforts and costs onto us"
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What about countries where no language has a majority only a plurality? Does the French govt just assume those countries don't speak any language?
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Also Catalan is spoken as a first language by about 4 million people.
That alone does not make a good reason. There are 12 million speakers of Bavarian. Should that also become an official EU language?
Ned dass i do wos dagegn häd.
Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
All of these are true for Catalan.
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Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
All of these are true for Catalan.
So, you're saying the number of speakers alone is not a good reason?
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So, you're saying the number of speakers alone is not a good reason?
Is there a movement in Bavaria to get the language recognized as an EU language?
From what I've read, Bavarian seems to be mostly used for spoken communication, not written.
The Bavarian wikipedia project has 27k articles: https://bar.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hoamseitn
The Catalan one has 774k: https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portada
There is a TV channel in Catalan (https://www.3cat.cat/tv3/), and several newspapers written in that language (https://www.elnacional.cat/)
I couldn't find anything similar for Bavarian. https://www.br.de/index.html seems to be in German.
It also seems like children aren't taught in school in Bavarian, which makes quite a difference about passing the language to the newer generations and people who don't speak it at home.
I'm not saying that the number of speakers isn't a good reason, more that different languages are used in different context. Someone in Catalunya could live their own lives only in Catalan. Not sure if that's possible with Bavarian in Bavaria.
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The argument seems to be "please, Spain, deal with your local seperatist movement without pushing those efforts and costs onto us"
The EU pays for translations for a lot of languages with less speakers than Catalan.
If they logic is to "save money, let's use another language", then let's just drop all of them and just speak English.
Education in Catalunya is given in Catalan. Some people only speak that language, the same way some Croats probably only speak Croatian.
Recognizing a language isn't separatism.
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Is there a movement in Bavaria to get the language recognized as an EU language?
From what I've read, Bavarian seems to be mostly used for spoken communication, not written.
The Bavarian wikipedia project has 27k articles: https://bar.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hoamseitn
The Catalan one has 774k: https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portada
There is a TV channel in Catalan (https://www.3cat.cat/tv3/), and several newspapers written in that language (https://www.elnacional.cat/)
I couldn't find anything similar for Bavarian. https://www.br.de/index.html seems to be in German.
It also seems like children aren't taught in school in Bavarian, which makes quite a difference about passing the language to the newer generations and people who don't speak it at home.
I'm not saying that the number of speakers isn't a good reason, more that different languages are used in different context. Someone in Catalunya could live their own lives only in Catalan. Not sure if that's possible with Bavarian in Bavaria.
I’m not saying that the number of speakers isn’t a good reason
No I'm saying the number of speakers ALONE isn't a good reason and you listing a myriad of reasons beyond just the number of speakers that you think Bavarian doesn't fulfill just further proves my point.
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France, for instance, has a national policy against the recognition of domestic minority languages like Basque, Breton and Corsican.
Trying to give France the benefit of the doubt, but this just sounds like oppression. Is there a good reason France doesn't recognize minority languages in its territory?
The official reason is that they want to unite the country in one language, such that people are together, not divided.
The actual reason is "lmao get rekt learn french u peasant" but in French.
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What about countries where no language has a majority only a plurality? Does the French govt just assume those countries don't speak any language?
They assume that's their chance for everyone to learn French.
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I’m not saying that the number of speakers isn’t a good reason
No I'm saying the number of speakers ALONE isn't a good reason and you listing a myriad of reasons beyond just the number of speakers that you think Bavarian doesn't fulfill just further proves my point.
Those aspects were already listed in the above comment, so not sure what point you are proving.
Curious why you don't want to answer my questions about the use of Bavarian, I was genuinely curious about it.
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Those aspects were already listed in the above comment, so not sure what point you are proving.
Curious why you don't want to answer my questions about the use of Bavarian, I was genuinely curious about it.
Those aspects were already listed in the above comment
In this comment I originally replied to, where?
why you don’t want to answer my questions about the use of Bavarian
Because I thought they were rhetorical questions, as mentioning Bavaraian in the first place was rhetorical.
I never argued that it should become a recognized EU language, I used it as an example of why a large number of speakers alone is not a good argument.But since you're interested:
- Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? - No the official language in Germany is German.
- Are children taught in Bavarian - Official school language is also German but if the teacher and class speak Bavarian they also teach in Bavarian.
- are laws published in Bavarian - No, Laws are published in the official language of Germany, German
- are movies released in Bavarian? - Yes, movies set in Bavaria often use some form of Bavarian though usually in a way that would still be mostly intelligible to standard German speakers.
- Is there a movement in Bavaria to get the language recognized as an EU language? - Afaik not as an EU language but there are various language associations that do fight for more recognition and promotion of Bavarian.
see also: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Austro-Bavarian#Use
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Those aspects were already listed in the above comment
In this comment I originally replied to, where?
why you don’t want to answer my questions about the use of Bavarian
Because I thought they were rhetorical questions, as mentioning Bavaraian in the first place was rhetorical.
I never argued that it should become a recognized EU language, I used it as an example of why a large number of speakers alone is not a good argument.But since you're interested:
- Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? - No the official language in Germany is German.
- Are children taught in Bavarian - Official school language is also German but if the teacher and class speak Bavarian they also teach in Bavarian.
- are laws published in Bavarian - No, Laws are published in the official language of Germany, German
- are movies released in Bavarian? - Yes, movies set in Bavaria often use some form of Bavarian though usually in a way that would still be mostly intelligible to standard German speakers.
- Is there a movement in Bavaria to get the language recognized as an EU language? - Afaik not as an EU language but there are various language associations that do fight for more recognition and promotion of Bavarian.
see also: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Austro-Bavarian#Use
I was talking about this comment
Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
Thank you for your answers. From what you said, and what I can see on the link you provided, the situations for Bavarian and Catalan are quite different.
You mention a few times "German, the official language of Germany". The main difference is probably that Catalan is an official language of Catalunya. All the other aspects are a consequence of that legal status.
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I was talking about this comment
Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
Thank you for your answers. From what you said, and what I can see on the link you provided, the situations for Bavarian and Catalan are quite different.
You mention a few times "German, the official language of Germany". The main difference is probably that Catalan is an official language of Catalunya. All the other aspects are a consequence of that legal status.
I was talking about this comment
Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
So the comment that listed multiple arguments besides the number of speakers? In reply to my comment about the only the number of speakers not being enough? To which i reiterated my point about only the number of speakers not being enough, causing you to list even more other arguments?
The main difference is probably that Catalan is an official language of Catalunya. All the other aspects are a consequence of that legal status.
I start to feel like you're trolling me but let me try one last time:
I am making the argument that THE NUMBER OF SPEAKERS ALONE IS NOT ARGUMENT ENOUGH.
Catalan having a different legal status is a DIFFERENT argument from the number of speakers. -
As someone learning German right now, I can agree on complex but I'm not sure precise is very accurate. There seems to be a lot of assumptions based on context to know what one means. Maybe a more educated person could chime in, but I have not felt like the German language has made things more precise in communicating concepts (but full disclosure I'm at the A1 level going into A2).
Standard German can be all of precise, succinct, and clear at the same time trouble with that is that nobody talks like that. It's a Dachsprache / contact variety build out by, among other disciplines, science. By all measures the stuff you learn in school (whether abroad or domestically) is a constructed language. And it's mostly science which uses that kind of mode, e.g. administrative German is precise and (notoriously, excessively) objective but also verbose AF.
And it seems to be a mode that doesn't really translate. I'm always baffled by Anglos saying that Kant is hard to read.
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Well, yes. I can write a series of sentences in English without building in references to explain exactly how they relate to each other, but German writing explicates their relationship to each other.
Thus there’s technically more vagueness in written English, though the reader makes the leap (if the writer is an effective communicator).
As a small example, I went back and forth about including “thus” in the above sentence. I don’t think it’s necessary even in formal, written English, but it would be in German.
“thus"
Deswegen, deshalb, darum, daher, or demzufolge?
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Also Catalan is spoken as a first language by about 4 million people.
That alone does not make a good reason. There are 12 million speakers of Bavarian. Should that also become an official EU language?
Ned dass i do wos dagegn häd.
Bavarian is not a language but a dialect (group), same as Alamanian. Reason being that they do have a common Dachsprache (Standard German) that is of the same language group (High German).
Contrast to Norwegian and Swedish which are more closely related than Bavarian is to Alamanian, but do not have a Dachsprache they could be dialect of, thus they're languages. Then there's Low Saxon which does share a Dachsprache with Bavarian and Alamanian (unless it uses Dutch as Dachsprache), but is more closely related to English than to Standard German.
In short: If you want to be more than a dialect you have to stop speaking Standard.
