EU countries resist Spain on making Catalan official language
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Just attempting to understand what you wrote here, are you saying that German writing requires a massive number of references to past statements to be understood and that somehow makes it more precise?
Well, yes. I can write a series of sentences in English without building in references to explain exactly how they relate to each other, but German writing explicates their relationship to each other.
Thus there’s technically more vagueness in written English, though the reader makes the leap (if the writer is an effective communicator).
As a small example, I went back and forth about including “thus” in the above sentence. I don’t think it’s necessary even in formal, written English, but it would be in German.
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France, for instance, has a national policy against the recognition of domestic minority languages like Basque, Breton and Corsican.
Trying to give France the benefit of the doubt, but this just sounds like oppression. Is there a good reason France doesn't recognize minority languages in its territory?
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The EU pays for translators for Irish, which has less than 2 millions L2 speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language), Latvian with 1.5 millions speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_language), Maltese with less than 600,000 speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language).
Why wouldn't the EU pay for Catalan, which has 4 millions of L1 speakers, and 5 millions of L2 speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language)?
If the argument is "yes, but they are their own country", then that's just going to give ammunition to the Catalan independentists.
The argument seems to be "please, Spain, deal with your local seperatist movement without pushing those efforts and costs onto us"
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What about countries where no language has a majority only a plurality? Does the French govt just assume those countries don't speak any language?
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Also Catalan is spoken as a first language by about 4 million people.
That alone does not make a good reason. There are 12 million speakers of Bavarian. Should that also become an official EU language?
Ned dass i do wos dagegn häd.
Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
All of these are true for Catalan.
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Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
All of these are true for Catalan.
So, you're saying the number of speakers alone is not a good reason?
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So, you're saying the number of speakers alone is not a good reason?
Is there a movement in Bavaria to get the language recognized as an EU language?
From what I've read, Bavarian seems to be mostly used for spoken communication, not written.
The Bavarian wikipedia project has 27k articles: https://bar.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hoamseitn
The Catalan one has 774k: https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portada
There is a TV channel in Catalan (https://www.3cat.cat/tv3/), and several newspapers written in that language (https://www.elnacional.cat/)
I couldn't find anything similar for Bavarian. https://www.br.de/index.html seems to be in German.
It also seems like children aren't taught in school in Bavarian, which makes quite a difference about passing the language to the newer generations and people who don't speak it at home.
I'm not saying that the number of speakers isn't a good reason, more that different languages are used in different context. Someone in Catalunya could live their own lives only in Catalan. Not sure if that's possible with Bavarian in Bavaria.
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The argument seems to be "please, Spain, deal with your local seperatist movement without pushing those efforts and costs onto us"
The EU pays for translations for a lot of languages with less speakers than Catalan.
If they logic is to "save money, let's use another language", then let's just drop all of them and just speak English.
Education in Catalunya is given in Catalan. Some people only speak that language, the same way some Croats probably only speak Croatian.
Recognizing a language isn't separatism.
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Is there a movement in Bavaria to get the language recognized as an EU language?
From what I've read, Bavarian seems to be mostly used for spoken communication, not written.
The Bavarian wikipedia project has 27k articles: https://bar.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hoamseitn
The Catalan one has 774k: https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portada
There is a TV channel in Catalan (https://www.3cat.cat/tv3/), and several newspapers written in that language (https://www.elnacional.cat/)
I couldn't find anything similar for Bavarian. https://www.br.de/index.html seems to be in German.
It also seems like children aren't taught in school in Bavarian, which makes quite a difference about passing the language to the newer generations and people who don't speak it at home.
I'm not saying that the number of speakers isn't a good reason, more that different languages are used in different context. Someone in Catalunya could live their own lives only in Catalan. Not sure if that's possible with Bavarian in Bavaria.
I’m not saying that the number of speakers isn’t a good reason
No I'm saying the number of speakers ALONE isn't a good reason and you listing a myriad of reasons beyond just the number of speakers that you think Bavarian doesn't fulfill just further proves my point.
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France, for instance, has a national policy against the recognition of domestic minority languages like Basque, Breton and Corsican.
Trying to give France the benefit of the doubt, but this just sounds like oppression. Is there a good reason France doesn't recognize minority languages in its territory?
The official reason is that they want to unite the country in one language, such that people are together, not divided.
The actual reason is "lmao get rekt learn french u peasant" but in French.
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What about countries where no language has a majority only a plurality? Does the French govt just assume those countries don't speak any language?
They assume that's their chance for everyone to learn French.
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I’m not saying that the number of speakers isn’t a good reason
No I'm saying the number of speakers ALONE isn't a good reason and you listing a myriad of reasons beyond just the number of speakers that you think Bavarian doesn't fulfill just further proves my point.
Those aspects were already listed in the above comment, so not sure what point you are proving.
Curious why you don't want to answer my questions about the use of Bavarian, I was genuinely curious about it.
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Those aspects were already listed in the above comment, so not sure what point you are proving.
Curious why you don't want to answer my questions about the use of Bavarian, I was genuinely curious about it.
Those aspects were already listed in the above comment
In this comment I originally replied to, where?
why you don’t want to answer my questions about the use of Bavarian
Because I thought they were rhetorical questions, as mentioning Bavaraian in the first place was rhetorical.
I never argued that it should become a recognized EU language, I used it as an example of why a large number of speakers alone is not a good argument.But since you're interested:
- Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? - No the official language in Germany is German.
- Are children taught in Bavarian - Official school language is also German but if the teacher and class speak Bavarian they also teach in Bavarian.
- are laws published in Bavarian - No, Laws are published in the official language of Germany, German
- are movies released in Bavarian? - Yes, movies set in Bavaria often use some form of Bavarian though usually in a way that would still be mostly intelligible to standard German speakers.
- Is there a movement in Bavaria to get the language recognized as an EU language? - Afaik not as an EU language but there are various language associations that do fight for more recognition and promotion of Bavarian.
see also: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Austro-Bavarian#Use
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Those aspects were already listed in the above comment
In this comment I originally replied to, where?
why you don’t want to answer my questions about the use of Bavarian
Because I thought they were rhetorical questions, as mentioning Bavaraian in the first place was rhetorical.
I never argued that it should become a recognized EU language, I used it as an example of why a large number of speakers alone is not a good argument.But since you're interested:
- Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? - No the official language in Germany is German.
- Are children taught in Bavarian - Official school language is also German but if the teacher and class speak Bavarian they also teach in Bavarian.
- are laws published in Bavarian - No, Laws are published in the official language of Germany, German
- are movies released in Bavarian? - Yes, movies set in Bavaria often use some form of Bavarian though usually in a way that would still be mostly intelligible to standard German speakers.
- Is there a movement in Bavaria to get the language recognized as an EU language? - Afaik not as an EU language but there are various language associations that do fight for more recognition and promotion of Bavarian.
see also: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Austro-Bavarian#Use
I was talking about this comment
Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
Thank you for your answers. From what you said, and what I can see on the link you provided, the situations for Bavarian and Catalan are quite different.
You mention a few times "German, the official language of Germany". The main difference is probably that Catalan is an official language of Catalunya. All the other aspects are a consequence of that legal status.
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I was talking about this comment
Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
Thank you for your answers. From what you said, and what I can see on the link you provided, the situations for Bavarian and Catalan are quite different.
You mention a few times "German, the official language of Germany". The main difference is probably that Catalan is an official language of Catalunya. All the other aspects are a consequence of that legal status.
I was talking about this comment
Is Bavarian an official language of Bavaria? Are children taught in Bavarian most of their classes, are laws published in Bavarian, are movies released in Bavarian?
So the comment that listed multiple arguments besides the number of speakers? In reply to my comment about the only the number of speakers not being enough? To which i reiterated my point about only the number of speakers not being enough, causing you to list even more other arguments?
The main difference is probably that Catalan is an official language of Catalunya. All the other aspects are a consequence of that legal status.
I start to feel like you're trolling me but let me try one last time:
I am making the argument that THE NUMBER OF SPEAKERS ALONE IS NOT ARGUMENT ENOUGH.
Catalan having a different legal status is a DIFFERENT argument from the number of speakers. -
As someone learning German right now, I can agree on complex but I'm not sure precise is very accurate. There seems to be a lot of assumptions based on context to know what one means. Maybe a more educated person could chime in, but I have not felt like the German language has made things more precise in communicating concepts (but full disclosure I'm at the A1 level going into A2).
Standard German can be all of precise, succinct, and clear at the same time trouble with that is that nobody talks like that. It's a Dachsprache / contact variety build out by, among other disciplines, science. By all measures the stuff you learn in school (whether abroad or domestically) is a constructed language. And it's mostly science which uses that kind of mode, e.g. administrative German is precise and (notoriously, excessively) objective but also verbose AF.
And it seems to be a mode that doesn't really translate. I'm always baffled by Anglos saying that Kant is hard to read.
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Well, yes. I can write a series of sentences in English without building in references to explain exactly how they relate to each other, but German writing explicates their relationship to each other.
Thus there’s technically more vagueness in written English, though the reader makes the leap (if the writer is an effective communicator).
As a small example, I went back and forth about including “thus” in the above sentence. I don’t think it’s necessary even in formal, written English, but it would be in German.
“thus"
Deswegen, deshalb, darum, daher, or demzufolge?
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Also Catalan is spoken as a first language by about 4 million people.
That alone does not make a good reason. There are 12 million speakers of Bavarian. Should that also become an official EU language?
Ned dass i do wos dagegn häd.
Bavarian is not a language but a dialect (group), same as Alamanian. Reason being that they do have a common Dachsprache (Standard German) that is of the same language group (High German).
Contrast to Norwegian and Swedish which are more closely related than Bavarian is to Alamanian, but do not have a Dachsprache they could be dialect of, thus they're languages. Then there's Low Saxon which does share a Dachsprache with Bavarian and Alamanian (unless it uses Dutch as Dachsprache), but is more closely related to English than to Standard German.
In short: If you want to be more than a dialect you have to stop speaking Standard.
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“thus"
Deswegen, deshalb, darum, daher, or demzufolge?
therefore, hence, by conclusion, for this reason...
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As someone learning German right now, I can agree on complex but I'm not sure precise is very accurate. There seems to be a lot of assumptions based on context to know what one means. Maybe a more educated person could chime in, but I have not felt like the German language has made things more precise in communicating concepts (but full disclosure I'm at the A1 level going into A2).
German can be very precise. However it requires people to pay attention to the details, which they often don't.
The nuances become dependent on context and the respective knowledge of the originator and receptor.
Legal German for instance is very precise, in that every word matters. But then you need to analyze every word and understand its context.
I have taken a random paragraph from the civil law (BGB) (note that i am not a lawyer and only learned some of the interpretation of civil laws in basic courses for non legal professionals, so it is just my best guess. It should suffice for getting the point accross.)
§ 851 Ersatzleistung an Nichtberechtigten
Leistet der wegen der Entziehung oder Beschädigung einer beweglichen Sache zum Schadensersatz Verpflichtete den Ersatz an denjenigen, in dessen Besitz sich die Sache zur Zeit der Entziehung oder der Beschädigung befunden hat, so wird er durch die Leistung auch dann befreit, wenn ein Dritter Eigentümer der Sache war oder ein sonstiges Recht an der Sache hatte, es sei denn, dass ihm das Recht des Dritten bekannt oder infolge grober Fahrlässigkeit unbekannt ist.
Actually this example is perfect. First of all, it is just one construct of main sentence and side sentences. Lets dive in:
Leistet der wegen der Entziehung oder Beschädigung einer beweglichen Sache zum Schadensersatz Verpflichtete den Ersatz an denjenigen
"If the person who is liable for the damage or withholding of a movable object pays the replacement to the person who"
in dessen Besitz sich die Sache zur Zeit der Entziehung oder der Beschädigung befunden hat
"the person who, had ownership (not the same as property rights) on the object at the time of the damage or withholding"
So this second sentence is specifying the person in question.
so wird er durch die Leistung auch dann befreit
"so he will be freed of the duty even if"
Note that the "he" here is the person who has the duty to pay liability
wenn ein Dritter Eigentümer der Sache war oder ein sonstiges Recht an der Sache hatte
"if a third person is proprietor of the object or had another right on the object"
es sei denn, dass ihm das Recht des Dritten bekannt oder infolge grober Fahrlässigkeit unbekannt ist.
"except that he had known the right of the third person or his lack of knowledge comes from gross negligence."
Again the "he" is the one who owes the liability.
What does all of that mean? Take for example you damage the car of a rental company. If you didn't see the car to be of a rental company and the driver tells you "give me 1,000 € and the damage is covered" and you pay that to him, you don't owe another 1,000 € to the rental company when it comes to you. However if you had known it to be a rental car or you must have known, as for instance the logo of the rental company is on the car with the notice that this car is rentable, then you owe the money to the rental company.
However this has a few caveats for which it is crucial to read every single word and understand it. First of all the object needs to be movable. So if you damage a house this paragraph does not apply. Then you have to have the duty to pay the compensation and you have to give compensation for this law to apply. All of this is in the first sentence.
Then it is important that the object has been in the control/ownership of the person you give it to at the time of the damage. Now obviously if the driver is inside the car that is clear. But what if he was about to pick up the car from the parking lot and he has already unlocked it, but not entered yet as you damage it. Is he in ownership of the car yet? Here lawyers will start to have fun arguing. Also important is that the right was "had". When was it "had"? At the time when the liability was created.
Third is then pretty straightforward for the example of a rental car. The car is property of the rental company. However what if the property is disputed, say because it is a slightly damaged shipment from one business to another business and they argue if the property was transferred or not? Which brings us to the exception that this does not work if you know or would have had to know that the property rights belong to someone else. Again something lawyers will have fun with.
