There are probably a lot of Russians who fled to Germany after WWII only to end up in Huntsville, Al with a 9 year gap in their resume starting in 1941..., right?
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growing up in Alabama in the 50’s is all that’s needed to turn a child into a racist, fascist piece of shit
Alabama was the birthplace of the modern Civil Rights Movement, from Montgomery to Birmingham to Selma. A little unfair to assert it was a state that just makes people racist. The neo-confederates of the post-Depression Era had to work pretty hard to keep cramming Jim Crow down people's throats decade after decade.
That said, Huntsville Alabama circa 1950 was most notable for Redstone Arsenal, home to the Marshall Space Flight Center. The center was founded through Operation Paperclip, a project to export German rocket scientists to the United States and pump them for their expertise in the field.
A guy with a Nazi mother and White-Russian father who emigrated to a city built around the famous rocketry lab was almost certainly influenced by the German brand of fascist ideology.
That said, the Germans got their strain of fascism from Fordist antisemitism pumped into the country after WW1. So if you're going to pick a state to blame for The Heritage Foundation's brand of white nationalist hate, you'd be better off pointing the finger at Michigan.
wrote last edited by [email protected]A guy with a Nazi mother and White-Russian father who emigrated to a city built around the famous rocketry lab was almost certainly influenced by the German brand of fascist ideology.
You linked a source saying his mother was German, not that she was a Nazi. His father also did not move straight to Huntsville in 1951 according to this post, he retired there over a decade later after having worked in
FloridaJacksonville (thanks to derfunkatron for the correction). -
Uhm.. ok just seems like it's kind of deflecting from the point that this dude's dad probably got off the hook for commiting crimes against humanity and was allowed to start over fresh without ever facing justice for the atrocities he directly committed.
I know as an American in many ways, I arguably hold some responsibility for benefiting from an unjust system. Still seems like a distraction in a post trying to call attention to the fact that a man literally trying to overthrow the American government was probably raised by a war criminal, and nobody has ever noticed this or brought it to the public's attention.
So like the openly racist son of a Nazi war criminal who escaped justice is equivalent to any other American such as myself? Interesting, I would like to imagine I'm not quite as bad for being part of an exploited working class in an unjust system this guy is actively controlling, but I guess if you see it that way, not much I could say to change your mind.
So like the openly racist son of a Nazi war criminal who escaped justice is equivalent to any other American such as myself? Interesting, I would like to imagine I'm not quite as bad for being part of an exploited working class in an unjust system this guy is actively controlling, but I guess if you see it that way, not much I could say to change your mind.
This guy’s racism was probably influenced by his father’s views, but ultimately separate from his father’s potential nazism. What his father did, said, and believed should have no bearing on an evaluation of his morals. He’s an adult now.
When I was in high school, I was a big fan of George W Bush, because my dad was. Fifteenish years later, my politics are vastly different from my father’s, and though there are overlaps (gay rights, legality of drugs, and privacy laws, mostly), it would be misleading for a someone to say that I inherited those from him.
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I went to Paperclip because of the connection to Huntsville specifically with Redstone and NASA.
Oh, I didn't know about the Huntsville connection.
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So Hans Anatol von Spakovsky was an immigrant anchor baby?
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wrote last edited by [email protected]
He blanked for nine years then very briefly surfaced in Germany before somehow coincidentally ending up in the same middle of nowhere town in the U.S. where the U.S. government hid other Nazis to avoid trial in exchange for expertise they could offer that they didn't want falling in the hands of the Soviet Union. Mainly to help further develop nuclear weapons and other atomic technology, but in general anything that they felt could give the U.S. and capitalism an advantage over the soviets and communism.
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It's really hard to find somewhat accurate information on this guy. He seems to have been part of the White Army fighting the bolsheviks until the left for Yugoslavia. He taught there until 1941, when Germany invaded Yugoslavia. He stayed in the country until 1942 or 1945 (unclear), when he left for Bavaria. If the latter, it's possible he tried to avoid Operation Keelhaul which would have seen him forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union.
After the war he was in an American-run camp for displaced German peoples, where he met Hans mother. They left for the US in 1950/1951 and settled in Huntsville. Since he was connected to the University of Alabama (and was a professor in sociology before the war), it seems likely that he was somewhat connected to Von Braun, who was also important in elevating the UoA.
Interestingly, it's said that Von Braun and his fellow German scientists were more progressive than the Americans there. Von Braun was threatened by the KKK for a while because he hired black people.
But the timeline is shaky. Hans claims that his dad fought communists in Russia and Yugoslavia (specifically Tito's), but it's unclear when he did so. If he left for Germany in 1942 he couldn't have fought Tito's communists because he wasn't around.
Presumably if he was around in this period, he likely due to his nobleman origin would have been part of the Chetniks, who had a complicated relationship with the Axis. Not quite Nazis, but plenty of war crimes to go around still.
But the most credible source I could find claims he left for Germany in 1942, seemingly making it impossible for him to have been part of the Chetniks. Which raises the question: who did he even fight, if anyone at all? He seems to have consistently moved towards areas where there was less or no fighting at the time (and that he could actually move to). It's not impossible that he tried to avoid the wars once they reached his doorstep. He was also an anti-communist, which at least could explain the move to Yugoslavia and to Germany if it happened in 1945.
I'm not sure if based on these fragile timelines we can conclusively say or suggest he was part of the Nazis, Chetniks or any other group. The gap in his resume could well be explained by the fact that it's an academic resume, likely leaving things off if they weren't relevant to his academic career. Had he worked in a factory in that time for example, it probably wouldn't have been listed either.
We do know that his son's a fascist shitstain though. Whether he himself was a Nazi is highly unclear given the contradicting timelines and statements.
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https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/russia-hitler-white-russian-emigres-and-german-soviet-war
Defeated by the Red Army in the Russian Civil War of 1918–20, the Whites spent the next two decades in exile in Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, and beyond, yearning to liberate Russia from what they saw as the godless rule of Jews and Bolsheviks. When Hitler invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, many Russians sought to join his forces, blind to the fact that he aimed not to liberate Russia but to subjugate it. The Nazi regime, in turn, regarded these Russians with suspicion and enlisted only a fraction of them, mostly as interpreters and civil engineers. The Whites refused to see their homeland as anything but a victim of communism or to admit that Red Army soldiers were defending their country against Nazi aggression.
https://www.amazon.com/Russian-Roots-Nazism-Socialism-1917-1945/dp/0521070058
This book examines the overlooked topic of the influence of anti-Bolshevik, anti-Semitic Russian exiles on Nazism. White émigrés contributed politically, financially, militarily, and ideologically to National Socialism. This work refutes the notion that Nazism developed as a peculiarly German phenomenon: it arose primarily from the cooperation between völkisch (nationalist/racist) Germans and vengeful White émigrés. From 1920–1923, Adolf Hitler collaborated with a conspiratorial far right German-White émigré organization, Aufbau (Reconstruction). Aufbau allied with Nazis to overthrow the German government and Bolshevik rule through terrorism and military-paramilitary schemes. This organization's warnings of the monstrous 'Jewish Bolshevik' peril helped to inspire Hitler to launch an invasion of the Soviet Union and to initiate the mass murder of European Jews. This book uses extensive archival materials from Germany and Russia, including recently declassified documents, and will prove invaluable reading for anyone interested in the international roots of National Socialism. -
It's really hard to find somewhat accurate information on this guy. He seems to have been part of the White Army fighting the bolsheviks until the left for Yugoslavia. He taught there until 1941, when Germany invaded Yugoslavia. He stayed in the country until 1942 or 1945 (unclear), when he left for Bavaria. If the latter, it's possible he tried to avoid Operation Keelhaul which would have seen him forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union.
After the war he was in an American-run camp for displaced German peoples, where he met Hans mother. They left for the US in 1950/1951 and settled in Huntsville. Since he was connected to the University of Alabama (and was a professor in sociology before the war), it seems likely that he was somewhat connected to Von Braun, who was also important in elevating the UoA.
Interestingly, it's said that Von Braun and his fellow German scientists were more progressive than the Americans there. Von Braun was threatened by the KKK for a while because he hired black people.
But the timeline is shaky. Hans claims that his dad fought communists in Russia and Yugoslavia (specifically Tito's), but it's unclear when he did so. If he left for Germany in 1942 he couldn't have fought Tito's communists because he wasn't around.
Presumably if he was around in this period, he likely due to his nobleman origin would have been part of the Chetniks, who had a complicated relationship with the Axis. Not quite Nazis, but plenty of war crimes to go around still.
But the most credible source I could find claims he left for Germany in 1942, seemingly making it impossible for him to have been part of the Chetniks. Which raises the question: who did he even fight, if anyone at all? He seems to have consistently moved towards areas where there was less or no fighting at the time (and that he could actually move to). It's not impossible that he tried to avoid the wars once they reached his doorstep. He was also an anti-communist, which at least could explain the move to Yugoslavia and to Germany if it happened in 1945.
I'm not sure if based on these fragile timelines we can conclusively say or suggest he was part of the Nazis, Chetniks or any other group. The gap in his resume could well be explained by the fact that it's an academic resume, likely leaving things off if they weren't relevant to his academic career. Had he worked in a factory in that time for example, it probably wouldn't have been listed either.
We do know that his son's a fascist shitstain though. Whether he himself was a Nazi is highly unclear given the contradicting timelines and statements.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Von Braun and his fellow German scientists were more progressive than the Americans there.
Most of the Americans there would have been fascist shit stains. But let's be very clear, there is no way in hell Von Braun deserves the title of more progressive than any other racist shit stain while hiding from justice after performing horrific Nazi experiments on human beings. A Nazi shit stain is a Nazi shit stain. It might not have been your intention, but it just really rubs me the wrong way to hear anybody try and paint this monster in any kind of positive light.
The reason he was hidden in Huntsville vs somewhere more progressive, is bc it was the middle of nowhere and the U.S. government wanted to keep him and the atomic technology he was helping to create, a secret. This is also why it would be a very strange coincidence for Von Spakovsky to end up in Huntsville of all places.
I don't believe a word his son says about him, but I'd love to read any info you may have found in addition to his son's rose colored memories.
I'm particularly interested in reading this report that is mentioned in a citation footnote from an article titled ‘What Did You Do during the War?’
Berezino district party committee report on the case of Ia. A. Shpakovskii, 24 May 1946
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https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/russia-hitler-white-russian-emigres-and-german-soviet-war
Defeated by the Red Army in the Russian Civil War of 1918–20, the Whites spent the next two decades in exile in Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, and beyond, yearning to liberate Russia from what they saw as the godless rule of Jews and Bolsheviks. When Hitler invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, many Russians sought to join his forces, blind to the fact that he aimed not to liberate Russia but to subjugate it. The Nazi regime, in turn, regarded these Russians with suspicion and enlisted only a fraction of them, mostly as interpreters and civil engineers. The Whites refused to see their homeland as anything but a victim of communism or to admit that Red Army soldiers were defending their country against Nazi aggression.
https://www.amazon.com/Russian-Roots-Nazism-Socialism-1917-1945/dp/0521070058
This book examines the overlooked topic of the influence of anti-Bolshevik, anti-Semitic Russian exiles on Nazism. White émigrés contributed politically, financially, militarily, and ideologically to National Socialism. This work refutes the notion that Nazism developed as a peculiarly German phenomenon: it arose primarily from the cooperation between völkisch (nationalist/racist) Germans and vengeful White émigrés. From 1920–1923, Adolf Hitler collaborated with a conspiratorial far right German-White émigré organization, Aufbau (Reconstruction). Aufbau allied with Nazis to overthrow the German government and Bolshevik rule through terrorism and military-paramilitary schemes. This organization's warnings of the monstrous 'Jewish Bolshevik' peril helped to inspire Hitler to launch an invasion of the Soviet Union and to initiate the mass murder of European Jews. This book uses extensive archival materials from Germany and Russia, including recently declassified documents, and will prove invaluable reading for anyone interested in the international roots of National Socialism.wrote last edited by [email protected]Unless this book talks about Shpakovsky specifically - and I assume you'd have mentioned it if it did - this is not proof of anything at all. You cannot take, "a lot of Russians joined up with the Nazis after the October Revolution," to show that one specific guy was a Nazi; this is the ecological fallacy at best, even if we assume that most white emigres did that. Like, it would be absurd to call Alexander Kerensky a Nazi, and yet your logic here does exactly that.
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He blanked for nine years then very briefly surfaced in Germany before somehow coincidentally ending up in the same middle of nowhere town in the U.S. where the U.S. government hid other Nazis to avoid trial in exchange for expertise they could offer that they didn't want falling in the hands of the Soviet Union. Mainly to help further develop nuclear weapons and other atomic technology, but in general anything that they felt could give the U.S. and capitalism an advantage over the soviets and communism.
As I replied to you elsewhere, your own post does not say that he moved to Hunstville in 1951. Additonally, being a WWII refugee with useful skills is not an indicator of Naziism.
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Sure if you also ignore the fact we can't seem to account for what he actually did during the war or following the war before he suddenly pops up in this middle of nowhere town where the U.S. happened to be hiding other Nazis.
I would be very curious to read this report though if you can find it for me: Berezino district party committee report on the case of Ia. A. Shpakovskii, 24 May 1946
Bc it does seem that he was at least accused of Nazi collaboration at some point.
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So Hans Anatol von Spakovsky was an immigrant anchor baby?
More of a paperclip baby
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Sure if you also ignore the fact we can't seem to account for what he actually did during the war or following the war before he suddenly pops up in this middle of nowhere town where the U.S. happened to be hiding other Nazis.
I would be very curious to read this report though if you can find it for me: Berezino district party committee report on the case of Ia. A. Shpakovskii, 24 May 1946
Bc it does seem that he was at least accused of Nazi collaboration at some point.
wrote last edited by [email protected]He does not pop up in the middle of nowhere. As I have already said to you, your own post says he retires there after living in America for over a decade and working in Jacksonville,
FloridaAlabama (thanks to derfunkatron for the correction)Being unaccounted for in the middle of fucking WWII is not evidence that someone was an active Nazi
Is there any indication that that report is even about the guy we're talking about? What does the Ia stand for? Is there some evidence he was in Belarus?
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Not sure why most commenters are shitting on you. It is an interesting possibility. The apple not falling far from the tree is an expression for a reason.
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It's like saying the birthplace of antifascism was Fascist Germany or Italy... Like, yeah... It be like it do, because of how it did?
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Exactly my thought when I read that.
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Not sure why most commenters are shitting on you. It is an interesting possibility. The apple not falling far from the tree is an expression for a reason.
Yeah it's almost kinda weird how defensive people are getting with this.
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Not sure why most commenters are shitting on you. It is an interesting possibility. The apple not falling far from the tree is an expression for a reason.
Because they're making huge unfounded leaps of logic and then doing things like accusing people of defending Nazis for questioning the logic
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I read almost every reply. The general tone of responses are "you can't prove that so be quiet! Also I'm smarter than you"
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I read almost every reply. The general tone of responses are "you can't prove that so be quiet! Also I'm smarter than you"
That seems like a very uncharitable way to describe people pointing out that OP hasn't actually presented any evidence and has seemingly misread their own source. I think there needs to be something stronger than "was a Russian emigrant who was unaccounted for after the Axis invaded his home" to call someone a member of the Nazi party
