Democratic freedoms at risk as Germany’s new government prioritises support for Israel.
-
if anything the Holocaust and its worldwide condemnation gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere
See? And that's trivialising it. There is not a single case of a genocide as organized, precisely planned and carried out against so many victims. The holocaust is single event in history of mankind. If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it. Every comparsion of a massacre and the holocaust is trivialising the holocaust more and more. One could say (and I do): If the holocaust and other massacres have been compared often enough, holocaust will be just another massacre and it won't be noticed if it happens again.
The next genocide won't be noticed again because you and others will make the same argument that "it's not the Holocaust" so it doesn't matter.
-
Stop it. Stop comparing the Shoa and the current massacre in Gaza. No massacre is like the holocaust, there are no holocausts. Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
And from my German perspective acting like the Holocaust is entirely its own thing and ephasizing that it cannot repeat itself no matter what trivialises it more than any lukewarm comparison could. It's unfortunately a common sentiment but a dangerous one because if it's just a historical fact and completely detached from the present then why should anyone except historians care? Shutting down any comparison to current events does nothing except show everyone what a virtuous, guilt-ridden German you are. Focusing on the aspects of the Holocaust that were not unique and could happen again/are happening again would be more productive.
-
The next genocide won't be noticed again because you and others will make the same argument that "it's not the Holocaust" so it doesn't matter.
Of course just because of me, huh? I had a great constructive debate with other people in this thread and I won't discuss anything with you if you start to personally attack me.
-
Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
And from my German perspective acting like the Holocaust is entirely its own thing and ephasizing that it cannot repeat itself no matter what trivialises it more than any lukewarm comparison could. It's unfortunately a common sentiment but a dangerous one because if it's just a historical fact and completely detached from the present then why should anyone except historians care? Shutting down any comparison to current events does nothing except show everyone what a virtuous, guilt-ridden German you are. Focusing on the aspects of the Holocaust that were not unique and could happen again/are happening again would be more productive.
I never said an organized genocide with more than six million victims can't happen again. But it didn't so far and won't happen in the current Gaza-massacre. I explained why you really shouldn't compare the holocaust and Gaza and I don't see the need to explain it again.
-
juxtaposed
You may juxtapose it for more or less scientific reasons but as I explained in this thread, you don't juxtapose it by comparing the holocaust and Gaza in a political debate.
Juxtapose means to put things side by side to compare them.
I said document it, call it out and prevent it. That's not for scientific reasons, its very much political. How many more Gazans need to be killed before it's enough like the holocaust for someone to do something to stop it? We compare these things because they look similar. Not to trivialise, but to understand. -
Juxtapose means to put things side by side to compare them.
I said document it, call it out and prevent it. That's not for scientific reasons, its very much political. How many more Gazans need to be killed before it's enough like the holocaust for someone to do something to stop it? We compare these things because they look similar. Not to trivialise, but to understand.As I repeatedly said: It doesn't have to be "a holocaust" nor a genocide to despise it. Please just read what I pointed out in this posts's comment section .
-
I never said an organized genocide with more than six million victims can't happen again. But it didn't so far and won't happen in the current Gaza-massacre. I explained why you really shouldn't compare the holocaust and Gaza and I don't see the need to explain it again.
The death toll and methods of extermination are two out of many factors.
I never said an organized genocide with more than six million victims can't happen again.
You want to wait until 6 mill perish before allowing anyone to start drawing comparisons? Wouldn't it make sense to start earlier so people see the gravity of the situation before everyone's dead?
I explained why you really shouldn't compare the holocaust and Gaza
You repeated it a bunch of times but I can't find anything that resembles an actual explanation.
Also I won't discuss anything if you start personally attacking me.
I didn't?
-
Of course just because of me, huh? I had a great constructive debate with other people in this thread and I won't discuss anything with you if you start to personally attack me.
Yes, because of sick ghouls like you. There's a genocide happening right now that is far more documented with far more sick intentions on display from Israel and the world where citizens are getting deported for speaking against an injustice and your here whining about the holocaust? Please tell me when in human history has anybody been given such a special privilege with such a "important genocide" ever happen to anyone else? More Soviets died, more Indians died under colonisation but 100x than 6 million, countless Africans died, the whole American continent was almost wiped of it's indigenous people. But here you are complaining about something not being compared to the holocaust because it doesn't fit your special mindset that Jews are the ultimately oppressed people who are god ordained to go to a land they have to connection and commit the worst ethnic cleaning of the modern day. No city has been bombee, starved and devastated like Gaza has in a long long long time. Dresden, Berlin and London got nothing on Gaza.
-
They're blindly supporting Israel for historical reasons, not because they support genocide.
"I'm fine with our historical support despite the genocide." It's like "I don't care that Microsoft and Google use my money to undermine my democracy and make software to bomb brown people, at least their products are shiny".
-
"I'm fine with our historical support despite the genocide." It's like "I don't care that Microsoft and Google use my money to undermine my democracy and make software to bomb brown people, at least their products are shiny".
Exactly. People who use windows don't use it because they want to undermine the USA's democracy but because thats just what they've always been doing and they're not questioning their habits.
-
As I repeatedly said: It doesn't have to be "a holocaust" nor a genocide to despise it. Please just read what I pointed out in this posts's comment section .
I have, you are missing the point. You seem to be suggesting that what is happening in Gaza is dispicable but can't be labelled as a "holocaust" nor, arguably, a "genocide". So this is a semantic argument based on your personal perception of the word holocaust and genocide. Do you have a more appropriate word for what is happening in Gaza? Unfortunately "Gazans are being treated despicably" probably doesn't capture the whole 50000+ people dead and more dying due to military strikes, starvation and lack of clean water and medical care. See the funny thing with English is that when we don't have a word for something we borrow one, or use one that describes a similar situation... But, yeah the important thing is that no body should compare this documented genocide with any other genocide especially not the worst one ever documented in detail.
-
Aside from Germany, does anybody know if more countries are siding with South-Africa than before? I feel like every government is just digging into their position and whatever cruel thing happens doesn't really change anything anymore, at least not at the government level.
Macron is talking about recognizing Israel, which Spain, Norway and Ireland have done as well in response to the war in Gaza. Nicaragua is suing Germany over weapon deliveries and Namibia has seized a ship to prevent weapon deliveries to Israel. Pretty much every country, which is not a close ally of the US is siding with Palestine on the issue and quite a few US allies have done things, which are rather anti Israel.
-
When I first emigrated to Germany, I had so high hopes and opinions of this country and people living here. I had seen protests, counter protests, people talking about hard topics, cherishing democracy.
Now, I am disappointed. Looking for a way out. I feel like a criminal because I am against genocide and I support the ICC. I mean a court that it’s main responsibility is to prevent tragedies such as the Holocaust should be supported right?
Things are moving in a direction that makes no sense to me anymore. I feel like an alien
and the bad part is that it is not just Gaza. The same beat downs happen with climate protests and even anti far right protests. Germany is moving to the right and it sucks badly.
-
Macron is talking about recognizing Israel, which Spain, Norway and Ireland have done as well in response to the war in Gaza. Nicaragua is suing Germany over weapon deliveries and Namibia has seized a ship to prevent weapon deliveries to Israel. Pretty much every country, which is not a close ally of the US is siding with Palestine on the issue and quite a few US allies have done things, which are rather anti Israel.
recognizing Palestine I think you mean, but thanks. I feel the pressure from countries that aren't us allies doesn't add up to meaningful difference. Not so far I guess. So I'm just hoping more and more us allies put pressure on the us and israel, which will only happen if countries currently supporting Palastine wil pressure these us allies to move away from backing Israel.
-
Stop it. Stop comparing the Shoa and the current massacre in Gaza. No massacre is like the holocaust, there are no holocausts. Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
Even if you are right and nothing is a worthy comparison. Let me ask you a somewhat practical and important moral question:
If I murdered 10 people by shooting them in the head because they are black
Or if I murdered 10 people by slowly torturing them until they die from shock, this time it had nothing to do with who they are, just that I want to do this to someone.
What is worse? A terrible motivation or a terrible outcome?
And now that I asked that, maybe you are thinking that it is kind of a moot point, both are horrible, for both I should be in jail for life if not executed, right?
So we all can agree that out of all of the horrific things possible, genocide is one of the worst. A genocide is already hitting max on the horrifying scale, practically speaking, Hitler should have been in jail for life ir executed, but just because what Netanyahu is doing is not as horrific as the Holocaust, does not mean he shouldn't also be in jail for life or executed, right?
And what would be the benifit of keeping the Holocaust in a category of it's own? Does comparing it to something else that basically hits the max on the horrifying scale really reduces from the horrifying reality of the Holocaust?
For the sake of making a better world, I think comparing genocides to genocides, no matter the scale, no matter the horrificness, is the right way to make sure that people understand that any genocide is already as horrifying as it gets
And one last point that I think really drives it home. On the individual level do you think it matters? Does a starving, scared, injured, homeless, orphaned child cares if he is part of the Holocaust or the Gaza genocide? If you take a survivor from each, would you be able to say who is more deeply scarred?
-
This post did not contain any content.
Under German law (ianal), comparing Israel's actions to the Holocaust may be considered a criminal offence, i.e. Israel-related antisemitism (German explanation). It also makes sense to avoid these comparisons for basic common decency and piety reasons. We are trying to follow German law here - the servers are in Austria, the mods are not necessarily though.
As such, I'd urge you to steer clear of these comparisons. Thank you. /f
In European democracies, variations of a modernized anti-Semitism remain predominant, using various ciphers and allusions, among other things. Two aspects stand out here: (i) On the one hand, new conspiracy myths stand out alongside forms of subtle Holocaust relativization and trivialization. Ultimately, these almost always identify Jews as the "string-pullers". This is no coincidence: anti-Semitism is the historical conspiracy narrative of all. One prominent example is the claims that the Jewish patron George Soros is behind either a global "great population exchange" or the coronavirus crisis: Corona crisis is the Jewish patron George Soros - although his Jewish identity is often not explicitly mentioned. (ii) On the other hand, an aggressive hostility towards the Jewish state acts as an important medium for articulating and spreading contemporary anti-Semitism: Israel - the internationally "most important and succinct symbol of Jewish life and survival" (Schwarz-Friesel & Reinharz 2013, 172) - as well as against "the Zionists" (a now almost universally used cipher for "the Jews"). Link has preview pop-upInternal link: Anti-Semitic conspiracy myths and hostility towards Israel often end up appearing together.
(BPB)
-
Under German law (ianal), comparing Israel's actions to the Holocaust may be considered a criminal offence, i.e. Israel-related antisemitism (German explanation). It also makes sense to avoid these comparisons for basic common decency and piety reasons. We are trying to follow German law here - the servers are in Austria, the mods are not necessarily though.
As such, I'd urge you to steer clear of these comparisons. Thank you. /f
In European democracies, variations of a modernized anti-Semitism remain predominant, using various ciphers and allusions, among other things. Two aspects stand out here: (i) On the one hand, new conspiracy myths stand out alongside forms of subtle Holocaust relativization and trivialization. Ultimately, these almost always identify Jews as the "string-pullers". This is no coincidence: anti-Semitism is the historical conspiracy narrative of all. One prominent example is the claims that the Jewish patron George Soros is behind either a global "great population exchange" or the coronavirus crisis: Corona crisis is the Jewish patron George Soros - although his Jewish identity is often not explicitly mentioned. (ii) On the other hand, an aggressive hostility towards the Jewish state acts as an important medium for articulating and spreading contemporary anti-Semitism: Israel - the internationally "most important and succinct symbol of Jewish life and survival" (Schwarz-Friesel & Reinharz 2013, 172) - as well as against "the Zionists" (a now almost universally used cipher for "the Jews"). Link has preview pop-upInternal link: Anti-Semitic conspiracy myths and hostility towards Israel often end up appearing together.
(BPB)
I respect the considerations the mods have to be conscious of, but can I ask if this is the stance of feddit.org or just this community? Unfortunately I’ll have to block any group that requires complicity to genocide by ignoring the elephant in the room. Again, nothing personal.
