Bluesky made more money selling T-shirts mocking Mark Zuckerberg in one day than it has in two years of selling custom domains
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Nothing in ActivityPub says you can't move your content from one platform to another. It's just that Mastodon does not have this feature at the moment.
Meanwhile, I'm not sure whether Bluesky has this feature or not, but it's somewhat irrelevant considering the fact that there are no other platforms to move your content to. The only thing I've actually seen from this is that you can use an URL as your username in the front-end, though it just points towards the same DID in the backend. I struggle to see what the great achievement here is.
If this was the reasoning behind Bluesky, they could have developed a platform running on AP supporting the transfer of content between instances, and it would have been a whole lot easier than developing a whole new protocol.
Nothing in ActivityPub says you can't move your content from one platform to another.
Your content in ActivityPub is linked to the home instance. So for example I can't move this post from lemmy.world to another server. I could copy/paste the content into a new post on another server, but it would be a broken piece of our conversation with no context or replies.
Also, hosting a ATProto self-instance is not as expensive as you suggest. This person did it for $150/month.
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As much as I hate to be that guy, it's worth keeping in mind that BlueSky is not really practising what they preach here. The AT protocol formally allows for a kind of decentralization, but it is prohibitively expensive to run an instance, meaning that only rich folks or those who are willing to accept money from venture capitalists will be capable of actually doing so.
ActivityPub already existed when they started BlueSky. They chose to not make their protocol compatible. The reason is simple: They are a company, and they have a profit motive. ActivityPub is too democratic, and therefore hard to monetize. By now they have a bunch of crypto bro investors who want their money back. It's better to leave your money elsewhere.
ActivityPub already existed when they started BlueSky. They chose to not make their protocol compatible.
Traditionally, that's what new major version numbers are for. IF (and I stress the "if" because I have no clue about protocol design) it turns out that AT has useful features, a merger of ideas of both ActivityPub and AT could lead to ActivityPub 2.0.
That would be somewhat similar to AMD's proprietary Mantle leading to Vulkan (which was originally intended to launch as OpenGL 5.0).
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- The real user names (DIDs) are cryptic codes that are kept hidden most of the time, with your visible user name redirecting towards it. This gives the illusion that user names can be changed/transported, and that users are not locked down to one platform.
- Content is filtered rather than censored, so that a big monopolistic actor can allow bigots on their platform but keep them out of sight of regular users. Had Bluesky been an ActivityPub hub, it could easily end up being perceived as a nazi bar. This is a benefit for Bluesky who do not want to be responsible for moderating their platform.
They want decentralized moderation on a centralized platform. That's how on Bluesky, there's an understanding that the removal of hate speech "conflicts with Bluesky’s decentralized goals". On Mastodon, the decentralized nature is how we can give bigots the boots without them getting to whine about their freedom of expression. Bluesky manages to create a problem using the very same concept by which Mastodon solves it.
I guess this didn't really end up being a post about the benefits of AT. Oops.
This is a benefit for Bluesky who do not want to be responsible for moderating their platform.
At least in Germany there is a mandatory German filter list that seems to be maintained by Bluesky themselves. They couldn't legally operate here if they allowed holocaust denial and such.
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Nothing in ActivityPub says you can't move your content from one platform to another.
Your content in ActivityPub is linked to the home instance. So for example I can't move this post from lemmy.world to another server. I could copy/paste the content into a new post on another server, but it would be a broken piece of our conversation with no context or replies.
Also, hosting a ATProto self-instance is not as expensive as you suggest. This person did it for $150/month.
Fair - you could host a copy or a link (or a sort of combination between the two, I guess), but it wouldn't transfer the ownership of the original post. I'm still not sure this is such a pressing feature that I accept it as the actual raison d'etre of AT proto, especially considering how it very much exists there only in theory at best. But it is interesting technology, and something they could maybe have worked with ActivityPub to try to achieve.
I'm glad to hear that maybe Bluesky is more decentralized than I suspect, but Bluesky engineer whose blog post you linked still links to his bluesky account on bsky.social. If running a separate instance is achievable, I would love to see people actually do it.
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As much as I hate to be that guy, it's worth keeping in mind that BlueSky is not really practising what they preach here. The AT protocol formally allows for a kind of decentralization, but it is prohibitively expensive to run an instance, meaning that only rich folks or those who are willing to accept money from venture capitalists will be capable of actually doing so.
ActivityPub already existed when they started BlueSky. They chose to not make their protocol compatible. The reason is simple: They are a company, and they have a profit motive. ActivityPub is too democratic, and therefore hard to monetize. By now they have a bunch of crypto bro investors who want their money back. It's better to leave your money elsewhere.
I obviously support ActivityPub or I wouldn’t be posting this here but one of the AtProtocol developers bought a Raspberry Pi with 8GB ram and added an NVME drive. He’s trying to prove (or possibly make) this point wrong.
https://bsky.app/profile/why.bsky.teamSo far, it seems like it’s “working” but he’s found some things that are way too slow and needs to be fixed for it to run on a Raspberry Pi. But that gives me some confidence that the developers, at least, aren’t trying to make it so only people with deep pockets can run an instance. (I don’t know what the investors want but the developers aren’t scheming assholes.)
It’s probably going to ultimately be a situation where anyone with a high end PC (by today’s standards) can run their own instance. It’s definitely not an A.I. situation where you have to reopen Three Mile Island and piss away more water than Nestle to self-host.
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This is a benefit for Bluesky who do not want to be responsible for moderating their platform.
At least in Germany there is a mandatory German filter list that seems to be maintained by Bluesky themselves. They couldn't legally operate here if they allowed holocaust denial and such.
There are minimum standards they'll have to abide by, but that's similar to Meta after their change of policy. It really is not enough that it should make anyone feel comfortable.
Basically big platforms can choose between making moderation expensive, minimal, or arbitrary. Bluesky is leaning into minimal, keeping the door open for most things as long as they're legal. Reddit is leaning into arbitrary, having AI banning folks on account of upvotes. Facebook used to dabble with expensive, but have made a recent shift into minimal.
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I guess that's fair, as a way to make users identifiable with the same user name all over the internet, no matter which platform they are on.
When people sign in using bluesky on https://frontpage.fyi/, they are still bluesky accounts? Or does the account somehow transform into something that exists between both sites?
Is there any real innovation here beyond a combination of "sign in with x service" and having your domain appear as your user name?
I'm not sure if it's good window dressing on top of SAML/OAUTH but I see the same username on both. Not this is not me, I just scrolled frontpage.fyi and picked a poster at random then searched the same username on bsky.app.
https://bsky.app/profile/tonybark.com
https://frontpage.fyi/profile/tonybark.com -
"The king is dead, long live the king".
Or: Same shit, different wrapping.
Well, one is a public benefit company, the other is not. So not exactly the same shit.
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I obviously support ActivityPub or I wouldn’t be posting this here but one of the AtProtocol developers bought a Raspberry Pi with 8GB ram and added an NVME drive. He’s trying to prove (or possibly make) this point wrong.
https://bsky.app/profile/why.bsky.teamSo far, it seems like it’s “working” but he’s found some things that are way too slow and needs to be fixed for it to run on a Raspberry Pi. But that gives me some confidence that the developers, at least, aren’t trying to make it so only people with deep pockets can run an instance. (I don’t know what the investors want but the developers aren’t scheming assholes.)
It’s probably going to ultimately be a situation where anyone with a high end PC (by today’s standards) can run their own instance. It’s definitely not an A.I. situation where you have to reopen Three Mile Island and piss away more water than Nestle to self-host.
That's cool!
I'm also a big fan of what Bridgy Fed is capable of doing towards Bluesky - it does show that there is a lot one can actually do with the protocol.
As I read the situation it's complicated. They are not inherently evil—on the contrary, I think they are trying to do good—but they are locked down by the structural chains around them. The whole thing was initiated by Jack Dorsey, and from the onset they wanted to re-create Twitter while solving what they perceived as "moderation challenges", and with the starting point that they were to create the next Twitter, not a decentralized network of services.
Hell, wasn't the original idea that Twitter itself would become part of the network?
When I see Bluesky today I see Twitter 15+ years ago. A lot of optimism and goodwill, but nevertheless a project that is doomed from the start.
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This is so fetch
Stop trying to make fetch happen
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Its actually a pretty well aged reference, of legal drinking age in the US.
Are you still attempting to influence that adage becoming well-understood by the common man? I dare say that I don't believe that will come to pass.
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I'm not sure if it's good window dressing on top of SAML/OAUTH but I see the same username on both. Not this is not me, I just scrolled frontpage.fyi and picked a poster at random then searched the same username on bsky.app.
https://bsky.app/profile/tonybark.com
https://frontpage.fyi/profile/tonybark.comYeah, they will use their domains, and they can sign in with Bluesky. So it is the same account to a pretty significant degree. What I'm wondering is if the Frontpage user would break if Bsky.app disappeared, or if the user could still sign in as the identity is somehow truly decentralized.
As for domains as user names, I guess ActivityPub could achieve something by allowing users to have verified websites (mastodon style) appear as their user names. I don't really see what would have to change on a protocol level to make this possible.
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I thought this was slightly funny.
Mark Zuckerberg is known these days for wearing t-shirts with Latin phrases on them, especially ones where he compares himself to Julius Caesar.
Bluesky made a shirt in the same style, but theirs says "a world without Caesars" in Latin.
I guess most people who want to use a domain as their username aready have that domain.
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What does this mean? Am I old?
more likely young
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I obviously support ActivityPub or I wouldn’t be posting this here but one of the AtProtocol developers bought a Raspberry Pi with 8GB ram and added an NVME drive. He’s trying to prove (or possibly make) this point wrong.
https://bsky.app/profile/why.bsky.teamSo far, it seems like it’s “working” but he’s found some things that are way too slow and needs to be fixed for it to run on a Raspberry Pi. But that gives me some confidence that the developers, at least, aren’t trying to make it so only people with deep pockets can run an instance. (I don’t know what the investors want but the developers aren’t scheming assholes.)
It’s probably going to ultimately be a situation where anyone with a high end PC (by today’s standards) can run their own instance. It’s definitely not an A.I. situation where you have to reopen Three Mile Island and piss away more water than Nestle to self-host.
Yeah nope. At least not so far and i dont see why it would change. The current situation is that you can host stuff yourself, but you wont be able to connect and federate with any other servers or users without their permission. Its not a level playing field and it never will be.
Lemmy (and similarly any other federated system) is only NOT enshittified because people successfully grew lots of competing servers and therefore prevented a monopoly power. If lemmy.world hosted 90% of lemmy users, i guarantee that it would have quickly turned to shit.
Even if bluesky was using proper federation and people started setting up other AT Protocol instances, bluesky would still hold 99.9999% of all users. They have literally zero reason to change this situation and changing it would cost them millions in advertisement for other completely independent instances.
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That's cool!
I'm also a big fan of what Bridgy Fed is capable of doing towards Bluesky - it does show that there is a lot one can actually do with the protocol.
As I read the situation it's complicated. They are not inherently evil—on the contrary, I think they are trying to do good—but they are locked down by the structural chains around them. The whole thing was initiated by Jack Dorsey, and from the onset they wanted to re-create Twitter while solving what they perceived as "moderation challenges", and with the starting point that they were to create the next Twitter, not a decentralized network of services.
Hell, wasn't the original idea that Twitter itself would become part of the network?
When I see Bluesky today I see Twitter 15+ years ago. A lot of optimism and goodwill, but nevertheless a project that is doomed from the start.
I actually view it the opposite. Lemmy isn't necessarily doomed from the start but we will not reach mass adoption because we are too clunky to use for most users because of its distributed nature.
Bluesky has enabled tons of non tech users to immediately reap the rewards without having to worry about instances or who can see their posts, while maintaining decentralization (albeit with a high cost).
The true path forward will probably be a world like Bluesky but instead of running your own relay, your contributing compute power to a Kubernetes cluster. Instances and having to worry about federation is far too clunky for most users, it's the reason mastodon never saw mass adoption while Bluesky almost immediately did.
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I thought this was slightly funny.
Mark Zuckerberg is known these days for wearing t-shirts with Latin phrases on them, especially ones where he compares himself to Julius Caesar.
Bluesky made a shirt in the same style, but theirs says "a world without Caesars" in Latin.
That's all well and good, but the problem remains: Namely, the fact that Meta earns far more every day than all companies worldwide earn from the sale of T-shirts put together - much,much more. And Meta pretty much doesn't even sell anything (Oculus, c'mon). They mainly just sell massive reach for advertisements and PR (influencing opinions). In addition they sell, the personal data of users to make it work devilishly acuarate. As long as the vast majority don't care how this business model works and what power the centralization of attention means for their reality, nothing will change, I'm afraid.
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I actually view it the opposite. Lemmy isn't necessarily doomed from the start but we will not reach mass adoption because we are too clunky to use for most users because of its distributed nature.
Bluesky has enabled tons of non tech users to immediately reap the rewards without having to worry about instances or who can see their posts, while maintaining decentralization (albeit with a high cost).
The true path forward will probably be a world like Bluesky but instead of running your own relay, your contributing compute power to a Kubernetes cluster. Instances and having to worry about federation is far too clunky for most users, it's the reason mastodon never saw mass adoption while Bluesky almost immediately did.
I don't think usability problems in Lemmy are related to the protocol. For me open source alternatives carry the promise that they will only get better, while profit-oriented alternatives will eventually have to get worse.
I don't think any of what makes Lemmy difficult to use is a necessity based on its distributed nature; its a result of the developers being more geared towards the back-end than towards the front-end. Which is not an inherent weakness - the back-end needs to be good before a nice front-end can make sense. So I'm optimistic.
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Yeah nope. At least not so far and i dont see why it would change. The current situation is that you can host stuff yourself, but you wont be able to connect and federate with any other servers or users without their permission. Its not a level playing field and it never will be.
Lemmy (and similarly any other federated system) is only NOT enshittified because people successfully grew lots of competing servers and therefore prevented a monopoly power. If lemmy.world hosted 90% of lemmy users, i guarantee that it would have quickly turned to shit.
Even if bluesky was using proper federation and people started setting up other AT Protocol instances, bluesky would still hold 99.9999% of all users. They have literally zero reason to change this situation and changing it would cost them millions in advertisement for other completely independent instances.
Their federation doesn't work the same as Lemmy & Mastodon there's no federation to individual servers.
If Bluesky introduced ads to their app, you can take all Bluesky data from the relay and host your own app without ads. This is working today and easy to do.
If they started charging for access to the relay you can host your own relay and it will parse all users data for you to use. This is also working today but it's a little expensive.
Something would have to SIGNIFICANTLY change with the protocol for Bluesky to change how the relay interacts with the PDS, that would require such a large infrastructure change there's no reason even questioning further.
The reason you don't see anyone doing it right now is because there's not much incentive to. On Lemmy we're each on our own little "community" but Bluesky is just here's everyones data no matter what when hosting a relay.
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That's cool!
I'm also a big fan of what Bridgy Fed is capable of doing towards Bluesky - it does show that there is a lot one can actually do with the protocol.
As I read the situation it's complicated. They are not inherently evil—on the contrary, I think they are trying to do good—but they are locked down by the structural chains around them. The whole thing was initiated by Jack Dorsey, and from the onset they wanted to re-create Twitter while solving what they perceived as "moderation challenges", and with the starting point that they were to create the next Twitter, not a decentralized network of services.
Hell, wasn't the original idea that Twitter itself would become part of the network?
When I see Bluesky today I see Twitter 15+ years ago. A lot of optimism and goodwill, but nevertheless a project that is doomed from the start.
Yeah, I have more faith in the Fediverse long term. But we’ve all been through multiple enshittification cycles where everyone abandons a platform and settles on a new one. At least BlueSky is currently open source.
I don’t want to make too much of this but BlueSky is registered as a B-Corps and not a C-corps. For those unfamiliar with US corporate setups, a C-corps is a typical corporation where maximizing shareholder value is the goal. People can disagree on what that means — long term value or short term value, for instance — but ultimately, C-suite executives serve shareholders and only shareholders.
A B-corps (in the U.S.) is a “Public Benefit Corporation” and executives have a duty to serve all stakeholder in the company, from shareholders, to customers, to employees. So, theoretically, BlueSky doesn’t have to be evil.
That being said, it’s not something to rely on. We just saw it with OpenAI, which started as a project at a non-profit and is now a regular ass company that the old non-profit happens to have shares in. A few corporate lawyers can fuck up a good thing very quickly.
