Three years later, the Steam Deck has dominated handheld PC gaming
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No, friend, the argument you're making is that Valve didn't sell it based on its ability to replace sticks or mice, which is what is incorrect.
Also, there are no points. This is a conversation, not basketball.
Explain to me how we can simultaneoulsy agree that it's not a great mouse replacement and you can still claim that it's a good solution to play non-controller games.
What non-controller games are these that don't rely on a mouse? Have we been arguing about your Donkey Konga or Typing of the Dead controller all along?
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Its not a great mouse replacement
This means that I'm not going to sit down at my desk to play games on my desktop and choose to pick up a Steam Controller instead of just using the mouse that is right there. That does not mean that the touchpads aren't still good for using with mouse-based games, which they are, it just means that they it isn't better than a mouse.
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I don't think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol.
I mean, it's easier homework if I only have to scroll up. You said what you said. Valve said what they said.
The weird part is we've ended up in the same place as the original Steam Controller. From being the "everything controller" that will support all types of games on a TV to being... well, not the right controller for games with controller support and clearly not as good as a mouse and keyboard for everything else, but hey, you could play stuff this way if you really wanted to.
Which is obviously not a great value proposition. "Hey, here's a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk" was never going to revolutionize gaming.
Oh, and by the way, I let this pass earlier because we weren't focusing on it, but for the Steam Deck specifically, the idea that the touchpads are "irreplaceable" and completely change the game when compared to other devices is also kind of confusing because...
... well, there's a touchscreen right there.
Not all games play well with touch inputs, but when you pile that on top of everything else the slice of games where the touchpads are an irreplaceable, indispensable requirement is vanishingly small.
I don't have a problem with people liking weird or inconvenient controls, mind you. It's just that I really would have prefered a version of the Deck that didn't need the Dumbo ears for the sake of keeping that weird vestigial remnant of the Steam Machines era.
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At some point you're going to struggle to put a capable x86 machine in a device that small.
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I don’t think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol.
What point are you making by quoting this...? Like... I stand by the quote. Yup, its not a stick replacement. Yup, the sticks have always belonged on the Steam Deck and it was never intended to be touchpad-only.
“Hey, here’s a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk”
Compared to... what is the better way, exactly? It's actually: "Hey, here's a way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk that you couldn't have done before with a controller". Or is your answer "Just play those games on a desktop with a mouse! Stop having fun!" lmfao
… well, there’s a touchscreen right there.
Do you have three hands...? I'm not sure how this is relevant, how are you holding the controller while operating the triggers and buttons and using the touchscreen at the same time? Using your nose to touch the screen? I think maybe you "let that one pass" for a reason
(it doesn't make any sense and isn't relevant to the discussion) -
Alright, so more homework:
Neither I, nor Valve, have ever pushed the touchpads as a stick replacement, and I will just keep reiterating my point that they are indispensable for use with non-controller games and without them,
Valve DID say they were a stick replacement. Maybe we can keep going until we catch up with ourselves.
I'm confused about why playing on your desk is "not fun", but I assume that was a joke? Besides that I've also mentioned multiple ways to use a mouse and keyboard on a TV, which I do routinely and it's just fine with next to no compromises. Plus the touchscreen on a Deck, motion controls and other stuff.
For the record, the touchscreen doesn't need a third hand at all. Plenty of games are perfectly playable touch-only and for anything with partial touch support it's barely an inconvenience to tap something on the screen and go back to the controllers. Maybe at this point you should tell me what mystery game absolutely requires a dual touchpad setup but doesn't require the responsiveness of precision of a mouse, thus making it indispensible to have your handheld device be the width of a tabloid or your controller have no right stick.
Because, honestly, I'm drawing a blank here. The proportion of games that don't support controllers, can't be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small, in my book. And, frankly, for whatever those are the real answer is to... you know, play something else? Not every game needs to be played on every device. I wouldn't play some games on a Deck not because they lack controller features but simply because they're not the best fit for the device and I have thousands of other games I could play instead that feel at home on a handheld.
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The proportion of games that don’t support controllers, can’t be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small
Hmm, gee, let me think... perhaps any game that is mouse-based where you need to be able to both click and right click while moving the mouse at the same time? Lmfao
play something else?
Lmaoo yep, that's what I thought.
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Show me your deck
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You didn't mention any games. What games are those.
Do I point the mouse without clicking in Monster Train or Slay the Spire? Yes. But also, those games have touch and controller support, so I can do the same in other ways. What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn't have any other way to do the same? That's not rhetorical, I'm drawing a blank here.
Where do you need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that? What game has controller support but also requires a pointer? I mean, Abuse, but that was in 1996, so maybe not that? Most games that use mouse aiming when playing on a keyboard map that to the right stick, off the top of my head.
Surely there's a list of games you played this way with a Steam Controller or on Deck touchpads that wouldn't play well elsewhere. They must have names. Right?
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Deck pics
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Yeah the one big thing Valve probably won't touch is ARM because unlike WINE, that's a whole other beast in which the only valid solution is for game devs to compile for ARM, because translation layers like Rossetta and Box64 will always have 20-30% performance losses.
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What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn’t have any other way to do the same?
Umm... literally any RTS or management game... left click... right click... dragging entities around... multiselecting entities by dragging a box on screen... Good luck with the right stick for that, I'm sure its WAY easier to use it for these tasks than just using a touchpad to point the mouse, right?
LmaoWhere do ou need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that?
Umm... literally any platformer or side scroller or top down game that has aim controls...
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They better release a new one before I break down and buy a new "gaming laptop" because I sometimes game.
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Yes, you've got a nice deck, okay??
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Until more recently when they started getting competion, what other handheld gaming PCs even existed?
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I think the Deck is too big for my tastes
That's what she said.
Honestly though I love the size of the deck but could even go a little bigger. Agree that as more manufacturers start using SteamOS it will be great to have options.
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RTSs are unplayable on touchpads. I thought we agreed that touchpads aren't a good mouse replacement for anything requiring precision. Who is out there doing micro on Starcraft 2 on a Steam Controller?
And no, absolutely not true that side scrollers with aim controls need a touchpad. Bloodstained? Maps it to the right stick. Prince of Persia? Right stick. The entire Trine series? Right stick.
I hate when platformers require analogue inputs in the first place, because come on, you want to use a d-pad. But even then I can't think of a single example (since Abuse) that requires you to move and do analogue aim but won't support an analogue stick for that. The common name of top down games with free aim these days is "twin stick shooters", even. Nex Machina? Right stick. Minishoot? Right stick. Oooh, Knight Witch. Underrated. Right stick.
Rimworld, which I haven't played much, IS definitely a mouse and keyboard game. Same issue as with RTSs, though. I would absolutely not try to play that with a controller. Or a touchpad of any kind. Hell, the screen size would be a dealbreaker there.
We're looking for a bit of a unicorn here. It needs to be so coarse and slow that you can comfortably use a dual touchpad setup, but too cumbersome for a single touchpad or a touchscreen. Or somehow not supporting controllers but only for right stick aiming. Which Steam Input can simulate with a stick anyway.
Look, I'm not saying you can't prefer to play that way. You're in a very slim minority but you can absolutely be that guy.
I am saying that your choice is not anywhere near the only choice or the best choice. And for the places where playing with a mouse cursor is a must there is simply no good choice on a controller, with or without touchpads.
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I mean that's basically like saying "Who is playing Startcraft 2 on a laptop???" lmao the Steam Deck and Steam Controller touchpads are literally more precise and usable than most laptop touchpads...
And further, in the same messages you accept "using a single touchpad", so like... you agree with me... great. And to satisfy your "dual touchpad" requirement, like I said waaaaaay back up at the top, the left touchpad is great for virtual menus. Pretty indispensable again in any RTS game, or mmoRPG, or pretty much other games designed for keyboard with complex keybinds that a controller cannot support. An analog stick can work with simple virtual menus, but only doesn't totally suck when it is a radial menu.
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I think where I struggle to compare them is that the game gear was meant to be a mass market device that would sell tens of millions of units if not upwards of a hundred million. Handheld PCs have a narrower audience and tend to skew more tech savvy, especially in the case of the Steam Deck. They have much lower expectations for units sold because they’re not trying to do the “sell a bazillion units -> sell a hundred bazillion games for our system” game.
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The first one I had was a GPD Win 2, in like 2018/2019-ish. You could do some fairly recent 3D stuff on it at the time, but it was better for 2D games.
