Why are there so many graybeards in FOSS?
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Because the replacement comes from non-graybeards in FOSS, and their replacement from without-beards in FOSS, and they come from youths in FOSS, and they from teens geeking around with computers, and oops - teens are not geeking around with computers, they are watching reels and scrolling recommendations and doing other bullshit. If they have a PC, it's an unloved work tool for them, with crappy bloated Windows, crappy bloated software for work and studies, not always crappy, but bloated games, you get the idea.
Because there was a generation very fertile on geeks. It's going away. There are demographic pits and there are demographic, what they call them, hills? The point is, we are seeing the effects of the latter.
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Sure, sure, old man. Everything was better when you were young.
There never was a majority of people who were into computers. It was always a minority. And I'd argue that nowadays there's more developers because there's simply more people with access to computers.
Some of them won't like them, some will be neutral and some will be "geeking around".
And having seen some code from people both older and younger, the younger ones are better (note that it's my anecdotal evidence). And you at least can train the younger ones, while the "experienced" will argue with you and take energy out of your day.
I'm so tired of the stupid "when I was young, everything was better". You know what else was exactly the same? The previous generation telling you how everything was better when they were young. Congrats, you're them now.
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Sure, sure, old man. Everything was better when you were young.
I'm 28.
There never was a majority of people who were into computers. It was always a minority. And I’d argue that nowadays there’s more developers because there’s simply more people with access to computers.
I've literally said that the kind of access to computers matters. In my childhood it was Windows 2000 (98SE when I wasn't intelligent or interested enough). In those greybeards' childhoods - I guess a greybeard is someone who didn't have a computer in their childhood, but with programmable calculators, or automatic devices (like sewing machines) manufactured then, it was easier to grasp the initial concepts.
Human brain is not a condom, it can't just fit something as messy and big even to use as today's desktop OS'es and general approaches and the Web. It will reject it and find other occupations. While in year 2005 the Web was more or less understandable, and desktop operating systems at least in UI\UX didn't complicate matters too much.
Some of them won’t like them, some will be neutral and some will be “geeking around”.
But the proportion will change in just the way I've described.
And having seen some code from people both older and younger, the younger ones are better (note that it’s my anecdotal evidence). And you at least can train the younger ones, while the “experienced” will argue with you and take energy out of your day.
Maybe that's because you are wrong and like people who bend under the pressure of your ignorance. Hypothetically, this is not an attack. Or maybe just those who don't argue, that's a social thing.
Also, of course, people whose experience has been formed in a different environment think differently, and their solutions might seem worse for someone preferring the current environment.
As you said, that's anecdotal.
I’m so tired of the stupid “when I was young, everything was better”. You know what else was exactly the same? The previous generation telling you how everything was better when they were young. Congrats, you’re them now.
Well, this would mean you're tired of your own mental masturbation because this is not what I said.
I'm talking more along the lines of everything coming to an end and this complexity growth being one of the mechanisms through which this industry will eventually crash. Analogous to, say, citizenship through service for Roman empire.
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Lol yeah that was some anecdotal evidence!
What's next, girls vs boys code? People wearing hats vs people not wearing hats code?
Manager material right there.
BTW if an old geek argues that your code design/decision is bad then you should probably listen. But that's what beginners don't do, they think they know it all...
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One rather obvious reason is that society has a lot of greybeards in general. The baby boomer generation was named that for a reason, and people have been living longer on average. Lots of countries are struggling with the demographic effects. There's no reason to expect that tech or something even more specific like FOSS would be exempt.
Another aspect here is that FOSS is still kind of new in society. There's just more people who have had the chance to age into FOSS greybeards than when those greybeards were young. (And they were thus likely to a lesser degree blocked by entrenched greybeards when they were getting started.)
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Normal, mainstream software expected users to run DOS commands and edit autoexec.bat/config.sys files, and installing new hardware often involved configuring motherboard DIP switches and trying to figure out what "IRQ" and "DMA" means. There is no equivalent to that today. Plug it in, turn it on, and you're done. 9 times out of 10 you don't even need to install a driver, your OS already has it. Where does the door to learning and discovery present itself? With plug and play systems and walled garden app stores, everywhere a user could possibly come across some more advanced concepts has been muted and decorated over with pretty conveniences. Computers are toasters now.
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and they from teens geeking around with computers, and oops - teens are not geeking around with computers, they are watching reels and scrolling recommendations and doing other bullshit.
"Youth bad." Lazy take. As if everyone in the gray beard generation was tinkering around with computers? Plenty of youths still tinker. Posting condescending shit like this is just going to turn them off from pursuing/contributing.
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I think it's more a matter of the ideals of the times, Foss was created in the 80's, as I see it as an ideological child of the 70's, a period of time where progress, optimism and idealism about creating a better future and a better world probably peaked.
Of course there is also idealism today, but it's different, at least the way I see it, the sense of quick progress especially on the humanitarian side is gone, the decades of peace with Russia is broken, and climate change hangs as a threatening cloud above us, and the rise of China creates turbulence in the world order.
So although things maybe weren't actually better, there are definitely aspects that look very attractive in hindsight. -
Grey-stubble Gen-X'er here... The 80s and (moreso for me) 90s were a great time to get into tech. Amiga, DOS, Win3.11, OS/2, Linux.. BBS's and the start of the Internet, accompanied by special interest groups and regular in-person social events.
Everyone was learning at the same time, and the complexity arrived in consumable chunks.
Nowadays, details are hidden behind touchscreens and custom UXs, and the complexity must seem insurmountable to many. I guess courses have more value now.
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Basically everybody making a game for Amiga made the equivalent of their own graphics drivers. Programming direct to the specialized hardware.
That way of programming apps is completely obsolete today. Now it's all about abstraction layers. And for a guy like me, it feels like I lost control.
If you want to program "old school" you have to play with things like Arduino.
I'm a relic now, that's just how it is. -
Gen Z/Alpha are the new boomers. I teach hundreds of so called intellectual cream of the crop per year. It was bad before the pandemic, it's seriously concerning now. The youth has largely divorced from reasoning and are used to reason in simple inputs to simple output. I am genuinely scared.
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It didn’t start grey but then I read the issues tracker.
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It's not youth bad. It's that in the 80s and 90s, computers were fun and required a lot of tinkering. Nowadays they mostly work. They're boring.
People who tinkered learned stuff. Users just know how to use a couple applications.
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I don't see anything that could be considered a "Youth bad" statement in that comment. It's a complex issue, influenced by a myriad of factors.
For example, I could dissasemle and reassemble my first PC without any prior knowledge. I had to learn to use DOS to navigate the OS and get things done. I got a book from the library about it, and spent hours upon hours just learning about how the file structure, commands, programs, external media, etc. worked before I could do anything remotely useful.
Today a PC/tablet/phone is a black box, you have to actively WANT to tinker in order to learn such about how they work. And most big tech companies try to punish you for so much as trying to replace a battery yourself.
I suspect you are projecting some personal feelings onto a stranger's comment.
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I would think it's a good thing that there are a lot of greybeards in FOSS? If the claim is true, then it should mean that once you get into FOSS you tend to stay there.
The article seems to be referring to FOSS code contribution more than user adoption, but the same idea holds. The more I learn about my distro and its packages, the less scared I get about something going wrong that I can't fix and the less likely it is I will go back into an OS riddled with ads and spyware.
For code contribution I only ever managed to do a PR for a Kodi plugin, and even then it was only because this amazing guy from their team walked me through the whole thing step by step. It was quite intimidating figuring out how to do that stuff for the first time.
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Most old FOSS is written and maintained in programming languages that Kids these days
don't think are cool (and were probably never taught about in school either).Hardware used to come with an extensive manual. Hardware these days is a vendor-locked black-box with built-in obsolescence that might get you in court if you open it.
Kids were more curious and spent more time outside, Kids these days
spend most of their time under the light of screens, inside their safe spaces and can't even tie their shoelaces. -
Can the kids even be trusted with shoe laces anymore?
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and installing new hardware often involved configuring motherboard DIP switches and trying to figure out what “IRQ” and “DMA” means.
That part is about IBM PC architecture more than it is about computers in general, including personal computers of that time.
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I can barely be trusted with shoe laces these days tbh
