Atheists of Lemmy, what are your thoughts on the Islamic Dilemma?
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::I don't, personally. As long as you aren't hurting anyone, I don't care what you believe. Its your life to live, do what you want with it.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::Ironically this means you'd have to accept Jewish people telling you that the New Testament isn't canon also.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::I don't see why that should be my concern
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Everybody's holy book says everyone else's holy book is ballocks. I submit to you that this provides excellent anecdotal evidence that all of them are ballocks.
Everybody’s holy book says everyone else’s holy book is ballocks. I
Not really.
For the Abrahamic ones they built off the earlier ones.
The most named person in the Quran is Jesus after all, and I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus beat out John Smith in the Book of Morman either.
Sometimes they rewrite it, sometimes they just copy/paste
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::wrote on last edited by [email protected]I just skipped through the video to get the gist of the topic.
All I think of is Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings. Both speak of good and evil and magic and miracles.
You could use either set of books to disprove the claims of the other, but it wouldn't get you any closer to understanding the world we live in.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::It's pretty simple
None of their books have a shred of credibility.
That which is stated without evidence (can be dismissed without evidence
The very thought of their god existing falls apart when you consider the omnipotence paradox.
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It's pretty simple
None of their books have a shred of credibility.
That which is stated without evidence (can be dismissed without evidence
The very thought of their god existing falls apart when you consider the omnipotence paradox.
How would you explain the omnipotence paradox?
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::Not an athiest but not a Christian or Muslim either. I used to be a Christian. At roughly the minute mark, the presenter claims that the Bible says that god is a Trinity. The video references Matthew 28:18-20 (about baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). While it's true that Matthew says that about baptism, that verse doesn't say that God is a trinity. Trinitarianism is one doctrine some have derived from the Bible but the Bible doesn't contain the concept directly or Christians wouldn't have had so much fighting about it. That's not even getting into the nature of Jesus himself which spawned some humdinger disagreements over time. 🥴
Slightly before that, the presenter claims that the Bible is our only source of truth (paraphrasing ... not going back to get the exact wording). The video doesn't prove that and it's not true that the Bible is our only source of truth.
It also relies on a lot of ignorance of the Quran at the very least on the part of the people watching it. I'm not in a position to speak much to the Quran other than to note that a devout Muslim would likely not find those arguments compelling.
This kind of "apologetics" / evangelical effort aren't edifying or useful to the believer or the unbeliever. To borrow a concept I heard from Christians while I was one ... those who can be argued into converting can be argued out of it. This kind of presentation is the sort of thing unprincipled people use to grift money out of believers in the idea that this will convert unbelievers.
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How would you explain the omnipotence paradox?
Can a god create a rock it cannot lift?
The very concept of omnipotence is a logical fallacy.
Given that the whole basis of the fairytale relies on their god being omnipotent, it kinda falls at the first hurdle
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I don't, personally. As long as you aren't hurting anyone, I don't care what you believe. Its your life to live, do what you want with it.
The problem is that you do hurt people by believing in untrue and harmful ideologies such as Christianity and Islam, both of which harm people, especially children.
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Not an athiest but not a Christian or Muslim either. I used to be a Christian. At roughly the minute mark, the presenter claims that the Bible says that god is a Trinity. The video references Matthew 28:18-20 (about baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). While it's true that Matthew says that about baptism, that verse doesn't say that God is a trinity. Trinitarianism is one doctrine some have derived from the Bible but the Bible doesn't contain the concept directly or Christians wouldn't have had so much fighting about it. That's not even getting into the nature of Jesus himself which spawned some humdinger disagreements over time. 🥴
Slightly before that, the presenter claims that the Bible is our only source of truth (paraphrasing ... not going back to get the exact wording). The video doesn't prove that and it's not true that the Bible is our only source of truth.
It also relies on a lot of ignorance of the Quran at the very least on the part of the people watching it. I'm not in a position to speak much to the Quran other than to note that a devout Muslim would likely not find those arguments compelling.
This kind of "apologetics" / evangelical effort aren't edifying or useful to the believer or the unbeliever. To borrow a concept I heard from Christians while I was one ... those who can be argued into converting can be argued out of it. This kind of presentation is the sort of thing unprincipled people use to grift money out of believers in the idea that this will convert unbelievers.
I had the exact same thoughts. And I am also an ex-christian.
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Not an athiest but not a Christian or Muslim either. I used to be a Christian. At roughly the minute mark, the presenter claims that the Bible says that god is a Trinity. The video references Matthew 28:18-20 (about baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). While it's true that Matthew says that about baptism, that verse doesn't say that God is a trinity. Trinitarianism is one doctrine some have derived from the Bible but the Bible doesn't contain the concept directly or Christians wouldn't have had so much fighting about it. That's not even getting into the nature of Jesus himself which spawned some humdinger disagreements over time. 🥴
Slightly before that, the presenter claims that the Bible is our only source of truth (paraphrasing ... not going back to get the exact wording). The video doesn't prove that and it's not true that the Bible is our only source of truth.
It also relies on a lot of ignorance of the Quran at the very least on the part of the people watching it. I'm not in a position to speak much to the Quran other than to note that a devout Muslim would likely not find those arguments compelling.
This kind of "apologetics" / evangelical effort aren't edifying or useful to the believer or the unbeliever. To borrow a concept I heard from Christians while I was one ... those who can be argued into converting can be argued out of it. This kind of presentation is the sort of thing unprincipled people use to grift money out of believers in the idea that this will convert unbelievers.
It doesn't explicitly use the word "trinity" but it does describe God as a three-in-one deal numerous times throughout the old and new testaments.
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It doesn't explicitly use the word "trinity" but it does describe God as a three-in-one deal numerous times throughout the old and new testaments.
Not really keen to get into a theological argument about a sacred text I don’t believe in. However, if you gave a neutrally translated Bible to someone who had never heard of the Trinity, it’s extremely unlikely they would come to Trinitarianism on their own.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::I don't think about it at all.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::wrote on last edited by [email protected]How many hundreds of millions of people have died, and will continue to die, over invisible 'truths' cooked up by liars looking for power?
The bible peddles the 10 commandments. My favorite example is a very simple rule 'from God': Thou shalt not kill. How many have died at the hands of 'protectors of the faith'?
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::Abrahamic religions are the worst, regardless of which variant.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::They don't believe in either so the Dilemma is not a dilemma for them.
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I just skipped through the video to get the gist of the topic.
All I think of is Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings. Both speak of good and evil and magic and miracles.
You could use either set of books to disprove the claims of the other, but it wouldn't get you any closer to understanding the world we live in.
I personally prefer The Magicians (The TV series) than either of the two you mentioned. I like the honesty of how the gods are just evil and fucked up. (Well except that one Human that became a god for a while, and that Demigod child of the Trickster god.)
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::my God is better than your God
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::This has the same energy as Twilight fans arguing who's hotter: Edward Cullen or Jacob Black
