Is it racist to oppose illegal immigrants?
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Swede here, absolutely not, around 2015 or so we got hit by the mass migration wave, there were plenty of documented cases of migrants throwing away or destroying their documents to try and claim refugee status when they clearly didn't need it, thus taking spots from actual refugees.
There were also real refugees who did this, they registered in Greece, Spain, Italy or other southern Europe country, but then they kept going north, trying to get to a better country. At that point you are no longer a refugee, but an economic migrant.
I 100% oppose these migrants.
The dumb thing is that the EU would distribute refugees throughout the union, just because you registered in Spain, didn't mean you had to stay there, you would stay for an interim period and be distributed to your proper host country.
I have zero issues with migrants/refugees who come the legal route, learn the language, work, and integrate in the culture.
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This post did not contain any content.wrote last edited by [email protected]
Is your opposition to ilegal immigration based on race or skin color?
If the answer is yes then, yes, you are racist. If the answer is no, then no, you are not racist.
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I am yet to hear a justification for opposing illegal immigration that doesn't tie back into racism or racial prejudice, let alone a justification that actually makes sense if you take it apart.
Someone prove me wrong, and I'll change my mind.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I've heard a very compelling one actually. It's not about ilegal immigration but against immigration in general. I heard it in a youtube talk maybe like a decade ago.
It starts stating that the thing a migrant person wants the most is not having to emigrate. No one wants go have to leave their country because they cannot safely live a prosper life there. So the best outcome would be that the origin countries would change, so people wouldn't have leave everything behind to start a new life abroad. The problem is that the country have to change from inside. And the people leaving a country is usually the most qualified to make that change happen. So by leaving the country they make the change harder or even impossible.
I'm not arguing in favour or against this argument. But I do not think it has anything to do with race whatsoever. As it doesn't even talk about anything related to migrant presence in a receiving country.
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I've heard a very compelling one actually. It's not about ilegal immigration but against immigration in general. I heard it in a youtube talk maybe like a decade ago.
It starts stating that the thing a migrant person wants the most is not having to emigrate. No one wants go have to leave their country because they cannot safely live a prosper life there. So the best outcome would be that the origin countries would change, so people wouldn't have leave everything behind to start a new life abroad. The problem is that the country have to change from inside. And the people leaving a country is usually the most qualified to make that change happen. So by leaving the country they make the change harder or even impossible.
I'm not arguing in favour or against this argument. But I do not think it has anything to do with race whatsoever. As it doesn't even talk about anything related to migrant presence in a receiving country.
But it boils down to "go back where they came from" which is the favourite of racists.
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In the US and many other countries, immigration violations are not crimes. Therefore, those immigrants are not illegal. It is actually a civil infraction, like a parking ticket... So, your question reveals hidden xenophobic bias. That alone is immoral. Is it racist in itself? Probably. It is very difficult to be xenophobic without also being racist.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I think those are just semantics.
I get the feeling of not wanting to criminalize the existence of a person.
But it's common language to say that civil infractions are illegal.
You could totally say "It's illegal to park here" even if you would just get a ticket for that.
I get the feeling. But I don't think it is rational to think that anyone writing "illegal immigration" is racist.
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I feel like if you're asking then you're searching for validation. A sort of way to not feel guilty about being racist. Tell me, what bothers you most about immigrants? This country wouldn't exist if it weren't for immigrants
What "this country"? Lemmy?
And I understand them searching for validation. It might be hard being anti-illegal-immigrant and everyone thinking you racist, even though your reasons are not racist nor xenophobic at all.
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But it boils down to "go back where they came from" which is the favourite of racists.
I mean if the axiom is "any negative about immigration is bad = racism" then yes, there's no argument against immigration that could not be racist as those two concepts would be equivalent.
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I am yet to hear a justification for opposing illegal immigration that doesn't tie back into racism or racial prejudice, let alone a justification that actually makes sense if you take it apart.
Someone prove me wrong, and I'll change my mind.
If you have a society with robust social welfare systems - education, healthcare, social security, pensions, childcare, housing etc. etc., mass immigration becomes a massive problem.
Everything is taken care of via taxes, and those taxes come from a productive working population. Slow population growth (whether from births or immigration) allows social institutions to expand at a matching rate over the decades.
Rapid population increases from migration can overwhelm the systems in place and put society in a spot where it is no longer able to maintain them.
Furthermore, when it comes to illegal immigrants, it gets doubly bad. They can't hold down a legal job (at least in my country, and thus not pay taxes either), which inevitably pushes them towards crime or illegal jobs which brings a whole host of other issues.
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What "this country"? Lemmy?
And I understand them searching for validation. It might be hard being anti-illegal-immigrant and everyone thinking you racist, even though your reasons are not racist nor xenophobic at all.
You just encountered US defaultism
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I wonder how old you are. Seems you're missing the population issue. I can go on and on, but I'm 54 and I've seen demographics and population change radically. Fine with the demographic changes, but I can see some being alarmed that "their" country is being taken away. Don't agree, but I get the sentiment.
As I've seen the planet's population more than double in my life, seen the countryside paved over for strip malls, I'm screaming, "NO MORE FUCKING PEOPLE!" Who's to blame? Can you see how it's easier to blame the "other"?
Blaming the "other" is just tribalism, which has all the same problems as racism. Saying it's easy doesn't excuse it.
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But it boils down to "go back where they came from" which is the favourite of racists.
simply because somebody who you disagree with says something, doesn't mean that that argument is bad.
it's like if a nazi says that the sky is blue, then you're going to insist that it's actually green or yellow. that's just stupid.
nazis breathe too. does that make breathing bad? no, you need to agree with it and continue to breathe yourself.
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This post did not contain any content.wrote last edited by [email protected]
There's various reasons why people oppose immigration. I want to present two of them:
- Economic reasons. Having more people in the country does NOT mean that there will be more jobs. Because immigrants are typically poor, they take jobs but don't spend much money back to stimulate the economy. That takes jobs away from the people who were already in the country, which is very unpopular. This is mostly a concern if there's a lot of people immigrating, since the number of jobs taken by the immigrants is directly proportional to the number of immigrants. You can actually see this phenomenon in real time in agriculture and healthcare. These are typically low-paid professions who are largely done by immigrants. If there were no immigrants, wages would have to rise because otherwise, nobody would do these jobs. Then the people who were already in the country could take these jobs, because they would pay a living wage.
Note that this is NOT a racist argument since it has nothing to do with what kind of people immigrates. Even if they were clones of yourself, this argument would still hold true. It is not about race or culture. - Then there's cultural reasons. (which is what's commonly referred to as "racism"). Some people have a hard time adapting to anything new, and immigrants typically bring new ideas and new ways of doing things, which is a learning experience for everyone involved, and some people just don't like to learn new things. That leads to racism.
- Economic reasons. Having more people in the country does NOT mean that there will be more jobs. Because immigrants are typically poor, they take jobs but don't spend much money back to stimulate the economy. That takes jobs away from the people who were already in the country, which is very unpopular. This is mostly a concern if there's a lot of people immigrating, since the number of jobs taken by the immigrants is directly proportional to the number of immigrants. You can actually see this phenomenon in real time in agriculture and healthcare. These are typically low-paid professions who are largely done by immigrants. If there were no immigrants, wages would have to rise because otherwise, nobody would do these jobs. Then the people who were already in the country could take these jobs, because they would pay a living wage.
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It depends on why. Is it a blind obedence to law, i.e. any law breaking is considered immoral to you? I.e. you oppose speeding, jaywalking, hiding Ann Frank just as much. No, probally not. That is a different issue called Statism.
After that you'd have to get into the countries actual laws and what their intentions and effects are. Is it just a matter of getting documented and agreeing to follow laws and participate in society and people are bypassing that in order to shirk accountabilty? No thats not racist.
Is it because there is a quota based on country of origin in order to shape demographics and so people desperate to move cant do so legally? Yeah, that's probally racist (with current demographics of the world largly affected by a few centuries of racist policy, both colonial and domestic).
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keeps most of the dipshits out
Perhaps, but the undocumented immigrants being rounded up do not seem to be dipshits. Dreamers, day laborers, people here for the past 20 years with no criminal history. Keeping the dipshits out is a nice idea, but our current policies are evicting people I want as neighbors.
I agree. I think our current policies are dumb as fuck.
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I think I understand what you're saying and don't necessarily fully disagree, but the directness at the very start definitely made me brace for xenophobia. In part because "dipshits" can be used as a dogwhistle
However, I would 100% classify trumpers as dipshits
but the directness at the very start definitely made me brace for xenophobia
Yeah, I mean, I was direct because I was disagreeing with them.
However, I would 100% classify trumpers as dipshits
I agree
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Is your opposition to ilegal immigration based on race or skin color?
If the answer is yes then, yes, you are racist. If the answer is no, then no, you are not racist.
Probably still xenophobic though
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Nothing makes you more racist than having a legal alibi to hide your racism.
This question reeks of asking if keeping slaves when they were "legal" racist? If it's legal, what's the big deal?
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Usually, yes
Because usually the reason they have to be illegal is racist, and the person complaining about illegal immigration is fine with it. -
There's various reasons why people oppose immigration. I want to present two of them:
- Economic reasons. Having more people in the country does NOT mean that there will be more jobs. Because immigrants are typically poor, they take jobs but don't spend much money back to stimulate the economy. That takes jobs away from the people who were already in the country, which is very unpopular. This is mostly a concern if there's a lot of people immigrating, since the number of jobs taken by the immigrants is directly proportional to the number of immigrants. You can actually see this phenomenon in real time in agriculture and healthcare. These are typically low-paid professions who are largely done by immigrants. If there were no immigrants, wages would have to rise because otherwise, nobody would do these jobs. Then the people who were already in the country could take these jobs, because they would pay a living wage.
Note that this is NOT a racist argument since it has nothing to do with what kind of people immigrates. Even if they were clones of yourself, this argument would still hold true. It is not about race or culture. - Then there's cultural reasons. (which is what's commonly referred to as "racism"). Some people have a hard time adapting to anything new, and immigrants typically bring new ideas and new ways of doing things, which is a learning experience for everyone involved, and some people just don't like to learn new things. That leads to racism.
I'm skeptical of anyone who says some demographic takes jobs, because it's an intentional misplace of the blame.
Nobody can take a job, but a company can give away a job.And strangely you don't see these same people fighting to lower the birthrates of the majority demographics (since high birth rates will cause the same issues at immigration with a little delay).
So how do you phrase your complaint while keeping the blame on businesses?
- Economic reasons. Having more people in the country does NOT mean that there will be more jobs. Because immigrants are typically poor, they take jobs but don't spend much money back to stimulate the economy. That takes jobs away from the people who were already in the country, which is very unpopular. This is mostly a concern if there's a lot of people immigrating, since the number of jobs taken by the immigrants is directly proportional to the number of immigrants. You can actually see this phenomenon in real time in agriculture and healthcare. These are typically low-paid professions who are largely done by immigrants. If there were no immigrants, wages would have to rise because otherwise, nobody would do these jobs. Then the people who were already in the country could take these jobs, because they would pay a living wage.
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Swede here, absolutely not, around 2015 or so we got hit by the mass migration wave, there were plenty of documented cases of migrants throwing away or destroying their documents to try and claim refugee status when they clearly didn't need it, thus taking spots from actual refugees.
There were also real refugees who did this, they registered in Greece, Spain, Italy or other southern Europe country, but then they kept going north, trying to get to a better country. At that point you are no longer a refugee, but an economic migrant.
I 100% oppose these migrants.
The dumb thing is that the EU would distribute refugees throughout the union, just because you registered in Spain, didn't mean you had to stay there, you would stay for an interim period and be distributed to your proper host country.
I have zero issues with migrants/refugees who come the legal route, learn the language, work, and integrate in the culture.
Why did the immigrants feel the need to do that?
If you're just going to say greed then I can't take you seriously, since greed would have moved them far sooner.Maybe there are problems with the immigration system
