Is it racist to oppose illegal immigrants?
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No. And I am tired of people assuming I'm racist for not wanting idiots coming over in small boats from france
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I am yet to hear a justification for opposing illegal immigration that doesn't tie back into racism or racial prejudice, let alone a justification that actually makes sense if you take it apart.
Someone prove me wrong, and I'll change my mind.
It's not race based, but there are cultures that are less developed and may not blend well with other cultures.
This even happens with the likes of white American tourists in Japan... Or anywhere for that matter. Even in the UK and Ireland, where they are likely the same ethnicity (I know because they never bleedin shut up about it)
For example, in some places, if something is given out for free, it may be normal to take as much advantage of it as possible. Or honesty shops- it might be seen as justified to take advantage of the shop owner because they didn't properly put a guard up, in their eyes, so were "asking for it". The latter attitude can also at times happen towards women and how they dress.
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Essentially this. There are no arguments against immigration that arent racist or xenophobic.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Immigration and illegal immigration are two different subjects.
Wouldn't arguing against immigration be xenophobic by default?
I think there are arguments for certain cultural backgrounds where standards or view on morality might be different. Or worldview. So they aren't necessarily all racist
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I've heard a very compelling one actually. It's not about ilegal immigration but against immigration in general. I heard it in a youtube talk maybe like a decade ago.
It starts stating that the thing a migrant person wants the most is not having to emigrate. No one wants go have to leave their country because they cannot safely live a prosper life there. So the best outcome would be that the origin countries would change, so people wouldn't have leave everything behind to start a new life abroad. The problem is that the country have to change from inside. And the people leaving a country is usually the most qualified to make that change happen. So by leaving the country they make the change harder or even impossible.
I'm not arguing in favour or against this argument. But I do not think it has anything to do with race whatsoever. As it doesn't even talk about anything related to migrant presence in a receiving country.
That's a strawman. And some people are just hustlers and want money and handouts and see it as something they are entitled to.
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It's just a lot of clever words for hating foreigners. I'm not fooled by it. Apparently you are. The solution to the infrastructure problems is to build more infrastructure. Not elect a bunch of racists and let hate rule your country. Who gives a fuck where people are from? Racists. That's who. People are people.
The solution to the housing crisis is to build a vast amount of council housing, just like we did post war. It makes jobs. It boosts the economy. It removes the upwards pressure on rent and introduces downwards pressure. Who would pay through the nose for a badly maintained private rental property when there's a brand now council house at much lower rent? Landlords would have to fix the house and reduce the rent or sell - reducing upwards pressure on house prices.
So it's the government selling off council houses instead of building more and money-grabbing rich venture capital landlords that cause the housing problem, not some immigrant.
How do you solve the problems of the NHS? Recruit more doctors and nurses. How? Increase the limit on numbers in medical school in the UK (controlled by the government) and for goodness' sake, make sure all the foreign born NHS and healthcare workers feel happy, wanted and at home, because the one think the NHS can't afford is to lose the immigrant workers! Next, bring health and social care and NHS under the same funding roof, either by putting NHS into local authorities or social care under the NHS. Social care is far cheaper than the NHS and a bunch of old people can't get a place in social care because there's not enough funding for it. If it was the same pot of money, it'd be simple - build a bunch of care homes and ease pressure on the NHS. But how would you staff them? I think you're beginning to see where the answers are but you don't want to admit it.
Who gave you money problems? Rich people running corporations to extract as much money as possible from you. Not some poor immigrant.
Immigrants make our country better. Without them it would be worse. Silly racists can sound plausible without using the word "race" or "skin" or "foreigners" as much as they like but their solutions are just about racism and not about making anything better.
Trump is living out the "deport them or lock them up" policy. If you think that's all going well, move to America. Unless your skin isn't pearly white, because they'll lock you up before you can say "ironic" and certainly before you can say "habeas corpus".
I think being anti-all-immigration is xenophobic. But it's completely different from being anti illegal immigration or wanting to, for example, stop the immigration of people in certain job markets to help the country's nationals to get jobs.
What I say is:
"It's better to bring in 100,000 immigrants who want to fill needed gaps in our society, contribute, build it up and create more jobs, than 10,000 immigrants who just want handouts"
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Yeah, but if a Nazi says we should send all the immigrants home, I see it for the racist shit it is.
That's not what this discussion is about, though. It's about illegal immigrants. Not immigrants in general.
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Yes.
Just ask yourself why there is even a barrier to entry in the first place. Prejudices and paranoia.
... Which are justified in many cases. For a start, as a brit, I don't want a mass amount of Americans coming over here and electing their Trumps and bringing their culture war with them.
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only if you stipulate your opposition based on individuals.
one can oppose all illegal immigrants based entirely on the legal definition of "illegal immigrant" and be ethically clear.
moralistically.... not so much.
I don't oppose refugees fleeing an unsafe country. I do oppose illegal immigrants coming from a safe country.
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If you have a society with robust social welfare systems - education, healthcare, social security, pensions, childcare, housing etc. etc., mass immigration becomes a massive problem.
Everything is taken care of via taxes, and those taxes come from a productive working population. Slow population growth (whether from births or immigration) allows social institutions to expand at a matching rate over the decades.
Rapid population increases from migration can overwhelm the systems in place and put society in a spot where it is no longer able to maintain them.
Furthermore, when it comes to illegal immigrants, it gets doubly bad. They can't hold down a legal job (at least in my country, and thus not pay taxes either), which inevitably pushes them towards crime or illegal jobs which brings a whole host of other issues.
I agree that there are legitimate reasons to manage immigration, but criminalizing the act is a complete no-go for me. There are other ways to manage immigration by creating incentives and disincentives that would make the criminalization of migrants unnecessary. I also believe that freedom of movement is a fundamental human right and that borders are nothing more than an authoritarian system of control. "Security" is only made necessary by the problems that nation-states create themselves by existing.
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It really depends on why you oppose them. There is no real answer to that question.
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I feel like "illegal" immigration as a concept is inherently racist and being upset and anyone for not coming over the "right" way is also racist.
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I don't oppose refugees fleeing an unsafe country. I do oppose illegal immigrants coming from a safe country.
so you're ethically compromised but moralistically solid.
good place to be tbh. allows those who desperately need help to find salvation and those who have and can to follow the rules.
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I agree that there are legitimate reasons to manage immigration, but criminalizing the act is a complete no-go for me. There are other ways to manage immigration by creating incentives and disincentives that would make the criminalization of migrants unnecessary. I also believe that freedom of movement is a fundamental human right and that borders are nothing more than an authoritarian system of control. "Security" is only made necessary by the problems that nation-states create themselves by existing.
How would you limit immigration without creating laws and stopping people when too many arrive?
Freedom of movement is good in a vacuum but not feasible in our current world. The best would be if developed countries could uplift those that arent and the need for people to move would be reduced.
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How would you limit immigration without creating laws and stopping people when too many arrive?
Freedom of movement is good in a vacuum but not feasible in our current world. The best would be if developed countries could uplift those that arent and the need for people to move would be reduced.
wrote last edited by [email protected]You've answered your own question, ending imperialism and colonialism so that unequal exchange doesn't create massive wealth disparities between nations and war no longer displaces people en masse, thereby "uplifting" formerly exploited peoples, would remove most of the incentives for mass migration. In a world at peace with itself borders are not necessary. Ask yourself, why is there no need to criminalize immigration between states/provinces within a country such as the US? Because the US, for the time being, is a nation at peace with itself. It doesn't have to be a perfect utopia - the US most certainly is not - to eliminate the need for border security / immigration control. Even a tenuous peace and a dubious justice is enough to eliminate the need for border enforcement.
Edit: This is a good write-up about how the criminalization of migrants does not even serve as an adequate deterrent to migration anyway. It is not only unjust, it's futile.
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Immigration and illegal immigration are two different subjects.
Wouldn't arguing against immigration be xenophobic by default?
I think there are arguments for certain cultural backgrounds where standards or view on morality might be different. Or worldview. So they aren't necessarily all racist
What is your argument? Please explain these moral differences based on culture. Could you provide an example?
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Wrong question.
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If you are just going to reject one of the biggest driving forces of human beings, then you don't want a serious discussion.
Greed is absolutely part of it, people want to maximize their gains, be it money, health, security or resources.
But since you don't accept that answer, what is your explanation for a refugee that keeps walking through safe country after safe country before finally finding the specific country they accept?
Why should refugees get to pick and choose a specific EU country to live in?
Why would legitimate refugees's discard their papers?
what is your explanation for a refugee that keeps walking through safe country after safe country before finally finding the specific country they accept?
Huh? Because it is safe obviously.
Everyone wants a better chance of better living.
And refugees are already moving.
Since they are already moving why not move to a country with better chance of better living?
If they hear "so-and-so country has better chance of better living" of course they are going to choose that, again, because they are already moving. -
I feel like "illegal" immigration as a concept is inherently racist and being upset and anyone for not coming over the "right" way is also racist.
Even if the law bars say only pedodiles from entry? Just hung up on the word anyone here. I'm guessing there are some number of people we can all agree should be kept outside of a given sect of people. Even back in the day there would be exile's.
Then if we say some number of people should be bared there would be a "right" way.
I'm not saying immigration policy is good now. Far from it.
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I wouldn't say it's racist to oppose illegal immigration, but it makes me suspect you might be and also makes me think you have very little empathy.
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That's not what this discussion is about, though. It's about illegal immigrants. Not immigrants in general.
It wasn't me that changed the subject
