Germany is now deporting pro-Palestine EU citizens. This is a chilling new step | Hanno Hauenstein
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So freedom of speech shouldn't allow people to say that apartheid South Africa should exist? That Nazi Germany shouldn't be allowed to exist?
I can remember when opposing apartheid ethnostates was the correct moral opinion.
What happened?
What makes Israel different?
Or are double standards prove anti semitism when their negative?
I guess it’s less about freedom of speech and more about not giving fascistic governments ammunition to eradicate Lemmy and instances like this one.
I am 100% certain that intelligence agencies are already monitoring this social network. Going against the status quo necessitates restraint regarding certain thoughts.
I’d argue you can still say these things, but you need to word them wisely. We have to remember they have all the power from the medias to the judicial system.
It’s an era in which they can easily manufacture consent to do whatever they want against what is deem a threat.
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Germany has recently taken a chilling new step, signalling its willingness to use political views as grounds to curb migration. Authorities are now moving to deport foreign nationals for participating in pro-Palestine actions. As I reported this week in the Intercept, four people in Berlin – three EU citizens and one US citizen – are set to be deported over their involvement in demonstrations against Israel’s war on Gaza. None of the four have been convicted of a crime, and yet the authorities are seeking to simply throw them out of the country.
The accusations against them include aggravated breach of the peace and obstruction of a police arrest. Reports from last year suggest that one of the actions they were alleged to have been involved in included breaking into a university building and threatening people with objects that could have been used as potential weapons.
But the deportation orders go further. They cite a broader list of alleged behaviours: chanting slogans such as “Free Gaza” and “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, joining road blockades (a tactic frequently used by climate activists), and calling a police officer a “fascist”. Read closely, the real charge appears to be something more basic: protest itself.
The real umbrella term is tolerance, you embrace it and it covers you, you either fall in line and integrate or you're out.
Nowhere is set in stone that you have a right to bring the shit that made you flee your country into your host country and escape consequence.
Good riddance, globalism is absolute shit.
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I guess it’s less about freedom of speech and more about not giving fascistic governments ammunition to eradicate Lemmy and instances like this one.
I am 100% certain that intelligence agencies are already monitoring this social network. Going against the status quo necessitates restraint regarding certain thoughts.
I’d argue you can still say these things, but you need to word them wisely. We have to remember they have all the power from the medias to the judicial system.
It’s an era in which they can easily manufacture consent to do whatever they want against what is deem a threat.
Probably the only non-evil response.
It fails the 'all it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing' test.
It fails the 'If I was in Nazi Germany, I would have resisted' test.
But I suspect that that isn't the reason used by [email protected]
I would guess that he would have supported Rhodesia if his government said that to oppose them was racist against white people.
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This was maybe news a week ago but these four dudes are the exception that make the rule, tbh. Germany is cool.
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The real umbrella term is tolerance, you embrace it and it covers you, you either fall in line and integrate or you're out.
Nowhere is set in stone that you have a right to bring the shit that made you flee your country into your host country and escape consequence.
Good riddance, globalism is absolute shit.
Beyond the thinly veiled xenophobia and eurocentrism, I find it actually ironic how many of you people spout this line of thinking since it shows your complete lack of mental capacity to engage with the reality that many of the people who flee do so as a result of Western involvement in other countries' governments, and the rest are fighting a system that chooses racism and violence toward the poor over, and over, and over, and over....
tl;Dr: keep shitting on the Global South but don't be surprised when you're alone while Putin and Trump come for your children and your children's children.
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The real umbrella term is tolerance, you embrace it and it covers you, you either fall in line and integrate or you're out.
Nowhere is set in stone that you have a right to bring the shit that made you flee your country into your host country and escape consequence.
Good riddance, globalism is absolute shit.
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In germany you are allowed to sue the state. If they felt like they were mistreated they would have already sued. No answer is also an answer
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The real umbrella term is tolerance, you embrace it and it covers you, you either fall in line and integrate or you're out.
Nowhere is set in stone that you have a right to bring the shit that made you flee your country into your host country and escape consequence.
Good riddance, globalism is absolute shit.
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Germany has recently taken a chilling new step, signalling its willingness to use political views as grounds to curb migration. Authorities are now moving to deport foreign nationals for participating in pro-Palestine actions. As I reported this week in the Intercept, four people in Berlin – three EU citizens and one US citizen – are set to be deported over their involvement in demonstrations against Israel’s war on Gaza. None of the four have been convicted of a crime, and yet the authorities are seeking to simply throw them out of the country.
The accusations against them include aggravated breach of the peace and obstruction of a police arrest. Reports from last year suggest that one of the actions they were alleged to have been involved in included breaking into a university building and threatening people with objects that could have been used as potential weapons.
But the deportation orders go further. They cite a broader list of alleged behaviours: chanting slogans such as “Free Gaza” and “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, joining road blockades (a tactic frequently used by climate activists), and calling a police officer a “fascist”. Read closely, the real charge appears to be something more basic: protest itself.
The article seems to say very little about the 4 people. What it does say is pretty light on facts about what they were involved in. Were they vistors? Students? Do they live in Germany? Do they work there? Have families there? Some factual context would be nice.
And how/when were they arrested? -
You get banned for using sock puppets and insulting people while using them and saying that Germany and Israel should stop exists. That's nothing freedom of speech is for. (c/germany mod here)
Just want to state that, I will not reply to responses.
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What mentality do you mean? The obedience? I feel like it’s more nuanced than that. Yes, following the rules everyone agreed on is lived in a rather inflexible way. If you think about it though, that’s democracy. It’s a commitment to the compromise. The unwritten contract between the majority and the minority. We recognize that the moment you start thinking "I don’t like this law, so I won’t follow it", democracy falls apart. People here want law and order even for laws they disagree with, because collectively that means that laws they agree with will also be followed by everyone.
There are limits though. While I agree that it’s scary to see the AFD become more and more popular, I disagree with your prediction. The idea of "never again" regarding the Holocaust guides every single part of public life. There are not many Germans who would say they are proud of their country. Only every two years, when Germany plays soccer in the international leagues, flying a German flag does not feel weird. Shame for your own country. That’s what Germans think everyone expects us to feel.
Strong military? We’re watching you. Your Great-Grandfather did what? Be sorry. Proud of Germany? How dare you.
The very first words of our constitution ("Human dignity is untouchable.") are a testament to the Holocaust. It’s an incredibly well chosen sentence that every single law is measured against. We know the entire world expects us to uphold this principle forever.
I am not arguing against the danger for democracy that the AFD poses. It’s very real. But in Germany we even have a law to actually make parties illegal that are against the constitution, most importantly the first sentence of it.
So, if Germans are obedient to the law, and the most important principle of our law makes anything even close to the Holocaust illegal, isn’t obedience a good thing then? The real question is, would Germans decide to just accept unconstitutional laws, or rather insist on upholding the constitution? I think the huge protests in the past months have made clear that many people are already standing up for the constitution. Not because they just follow rules blindly, but because they actually believe in the principles of compromise, democracy and dignity.
Yes, following the rules everyone agreed on is lived in a rather inflexible way. If you think about it though, that’s democracy.
I would say that's a veneer of paternalism on top of a foundation of democracy.
The people's vote is never precise. It gives broad direction to those who govern. Politicians are trusted representatives of the people to act in their best interest, but they're not told precisely what to legislate on (unless you're Swiss and live in a direct democracy). They can inact things which are inline with the people's wishes, and they can get it wrong.
If the people behave as is the legislators are always right because they were placed there through a democratic process and there is never any push back, then they've surrendered a large part of their agency. If the people just obey rules without question, their government is now their fixed term authority figures. The government knows what is right, and the people should just follow along.
Talk to a Frenchman and he will be very clear that government serves the people. Not the other way around, and that sometimes you have to break the rules to remind those in government who is in charge. Bastille day is celebrated to make sure no one forgets.
I think Germany has the wrong mindset on this point.
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Germany has recently taken a chilling new step, signalling its willingness to use political views as grounds to curb migration. Authorities are now moving to deport foreign nationals for participating in pro-Palestine actions. As I reported this week in the Intercept, four people in Berlin – three EU citizens and one US citizen – are set to be deported over their involvement in demonstrations against Israel’s war on Gaza. None of the four have been convicted of a crime, and yet the authorities are seeking to simply throw them out of the country.
The accusations against them include aggravated breach of the peace and obstruction of a police arrest. Reports from last year suggest that one of the actions they were alleged to have been involved in included breaking into a university building and threatening people with objects that could have been used as potential weapons.
But the deportation orders go further. They cite a broader list of alleged behaviours: chanting slogans such as “Free Gaza” and “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, joining road blockades (a tactic frequently used by climate activists), and calling a police officer a “fascist”. Read closely, the real charge appears to be something more basic: protest itself.
Context for all the people who think this is some illegal bs: The group of protesters invaded a campus building, threatened staff, destroyed IT equipment, vandalised entire rooms and sprayed a hamas symbol on a wall
Yeah no let's tolerate this
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I'm sorry, but I used to think exactly like you many years ago.
Most German remembrance culture is overly superficial. Many German politicians hold straight up nazi views and they're still mingling around in the Bundestag. Some of them were caught on audio saying nazi shit. Others were involved with nazi organisations as youngsters. Many of them still attend "secret" nazi meetings and they're still mingling around with other politicians, even when it gets out to the press. Many of them hold up antisemitic, homophobic, transphobic, etc. views and they're still in positions of power. Most german billionaires have built their empires on top of the Holocaust. They're still around. No one dares to touch them. There's just some superficial "public outrage" from time to time and then the wheels of history just keep chugging on. Where's the remembrance culture for the millions of victims, most jewish, many queer, and political victims of the nazi regime?
Where was the remembrance culture for so many decades for the tens of thousands of queer victims of the Holocaust? Germany barely managed to pass a same-sex marriage bill a few years ago. Hell, even the US has done it before Germany did and they didn't have any concentration camps filled with homosexuals. So where's the remembrance culture?
Where's the human dignity when the greens and the social democrats are deporting people to Afghanistan, a country ruled by the taliban? Where's the human dignity when minorities are often the ones to get the short end of the stick at every interaction with state institutions? Where's the human dignity when minorities die in police custody and nothing ever comes out of it? Or when cops are involved en masse with nazi organisations? Where's the human dignity when people go out to protest and they get massively suppressed by police, often with liberal newspapers cheering it on?
It doesn't need to get to an industrialised killing of a group of people to be able to talk about "nazi like mentality".
Germany is more than happy to revoke citizenships nowadays for saying things the German state doesn't like. This is something unseen since nazi times. This is creating first and second class German citizens. Are you a so-called "bio deutsche"? Then you're free to do nazi shit, scream your hate-speech at immigrants, you'll mostly just get a fine and that's the end of the story. Are you a german with a second citizenship? Then go against the so called Staatsräson, criticise Israel publicly, and you'll have the entire might of the German state weighing down on you, having your citizenship revoked and ending up being deported. For a thought crime.
You either stay in line, or you're out of here, unworthy of being a citizen of this state just because you hold a different opinion.
And the thing about making parties illegal. That's hilarious. The AfD is saying shit nowadays that other parties ten/twenty years ago have gotten banned for. And they're doing it openly. And growing bolder, while the german society just stands there and looks.
I don't think we disagree on these points. I'll reply to more of your arguments once I have the time, but for now the main question I was asking myself was: How can we at the same time do our duty to Isreal as remembrance of the Holocaust, and actively oppose what Israel does right now? We would have to cross the line, and actually say things that everyone says we shouldn’t because of our history.
My personal view is that our debts are paid, and we should go back to just rationally follow international law again. But it’s not an easy situation for our politicians, because most of the world still expects us to essentially not do that. What do you think could be the solution? In my opinion, essentially Germany has to emancipate it from its "Urschuld" -
In germany you are allowed to sue the state. If they felt like they were mistreated they would have already sued. No answer is also an answer
Technically, they are fighting it in court as of the article I read a while ago, but I don't think there is any judgement for or against them, yet.
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I don't think you're going to convince many people with this.
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setting hospitals on fire
The hamas is using civilian buildings like hospitals, schools etc as bases. So yes - they are being bombed.
Reading the rest of your brainfart, any discussion with you is futile tho.
The hamas is using civilian buildings like hospitals, schools etc as bases. So yes - they are being bombed.
Proof?
I bet you keep these thoughts for you in the real world (or you live in colonised Palestine). Why don't you go out in a bar and film yourself shouting this? Show us your guts big boy.
Also because you are so fucking stupid that you don’t know that IDF is actually using human shields (do you wanna see some photo of the pigs?).
Also also because if THE hamas (
) was hiding in a Israeli hospital (this is fake news, its not reality you stupid moron) means we can bomb an Israeli hospital and kill israeli kids no? Right? It would be okay for you right? The hamas is hiding! -
In germany you are allowed to sue the state. If they felt like they were mistreated they would have already sued. No answer is also an answer
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I don't think you're going to convince many people with this.
Ever heard the term "presumption of innocence"?
Personally I think swinging axes around is pretty mild compared to all the war profiterring germany is doing, but even if it's true, they would have no issue establishing who's wrong in court.
But hey, I don't know why so many of yee are so bent on defending genocide.
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Yeah fr these four dudes were not "Pro-Palestine Protestors" they were threatening people with axes, calling police fascists, and chanting "from the river to the sea". That was terrorism, and they're bejng let off incredibly lightly.
"From the river to the sea" is very naughty. It means they want to kick out our favorite ethnostate and then where would we ship all the bombs we get from subsidising our weapons industry.
We really have to deport those terrorists. They remind me I'm funding a genocide and I feel bad about myself now. Horrible people, really.
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"From the river to the sea" is very naughty. It means they want to kick out our favorite ethnostate and then where would we ship all the bombs we get from subsidising our weapons industry.
We really have to deport those terrorists. They remind me I'm funding a genocide and I feel bad about myself now. Horrible people, really.
Every single state solution is a genocide solution.
