What else was the alternative?
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I despise republicans, and always have, but I despise traitors on my own side even more.
Completely understandable on an emotional level, but if you're not careful this can easily turn into an accidental alliance with Republicans, and it often does.
if you’re not careful this can easily turn into an accidental alliance with Republicans, and it often does.
OK, it seems to me to be very remotely possible but unlikely.
I'd argue that you're coming from a consequentialism "the ends justifies the means" standpoint wheras I'm coming from deontological ethics.
I think you're arguing that "you can do whatever you want to as long as it leads to some identified desired outcome".If republicans are pushing for fascism, as we all seem to perceive here, my approach is the exact opposite of that. You dont need to take my opinion on it, you can use classic models which are a whole lot better than nothing. If you read up (its 60 seconds, I promise) on consequentialism you will see the Harris campaign outlined pretty spot on, and if you read up on deontology you will see the ani genocide crowd, again spot on. Then take a step back and think which is a better way to fight the vasy and sprawling abuses of fascism.
I dont think winging it ends-justifies-the-means style is going to cut it with these stakes. I'm not saying I'm sure I'm right, but I'm positive that I'm doing my best just like I 'd guess a lot of you think you are. When we think of what a bright future is, its a system of laws that irons out basic unfairness and brutality. We all want this. We disagree on how to get there.
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Wow, you taught Democrats a real lesson there! At the cost of even more Palestinian lives!
"We did it, Patrick, we saved Palestine!"
Seems to me that you're the type of person who, when faced by a thug asking if you'd like their daughter punched in the face or stomach, would pick a spot, and hold the person who forced the choice blameless. In fact you'd elect them to rule over you.
"Saving Palestine". was not going to happen under either candidate, and the genocide so far has been under dem leadership. Any of that untrue?
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Seems to me that you're the type of person who, when faced by a thug asking if you'd like their daughter punched in the face or stomach, would pick a spot, and hold the person who forced the choice blameless. In fact you'd elect them to rule over you.
"Saving Palestine". was not going to happen under either candidate, and the genocide so far has been under dem leadership. Any of that untrue?
Not making a choice is also a choice.
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This is getting old. The failing has escalated over the last decades, when politicians of all parties abandoned the working class / middle class and catered towards the ultra rich instead. They gradually shifted to the right and now the republicans are right wing extremists and the democrats are a right wing party too. Biden and Harris allowed the Gaza genocide to unfold and continued many of Trump‘s policies on migration even though they could have reverted them easily. They chose to serve their donors instead of the people and people just got tired of it. The democrats have themselves to blame, not the people pointing their failures out.
The fact that this is still contentious for Americans goes to show how far gone they are. Liberal democrats just can't seem to fathom the basic reality of what you're saying, they're so focused on aesthetics and "we need a mixed race woman president" over "we need to fix wealth inequality." It's about as brain dead as MAGA but with virtue signalling, "Yeah I support Israel, no it's not a genocide, rich people earned that money fair and square, and have no influence on our democracy" meanwhile they put on a rainbow flag badge on Pride month and say "I'm a progressive, and I support protesters (so long as they're not disruptive.)"
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Seems to me that you're the type of person who, when faced by a thug asking if you'd like their daughter punched in the face or stomach, would pick a spot, and hold the person who forced the choice blameless. In fact you'd elect them to rule over you.
"Saving Palestine". was not going to happen under either candidate, and the genocide so far has been under dem leadership. Any of that untrue?
Your option in your own scenario is walking away from your daughter knowing she will get punched in the face.
You knew that by not voting blue, way more people would suffer. You knew that and you willingly let it happen. Enough of "yous" got us where we are now.
Just because your issue didn't get adressed by any of the candidates, you willingly walked away, knowing that not voting would inflict more suffering, than voting blue. I want to let you know, that I think you are a garbage person.
By the way, I am not from the US.
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Thats fine. Youve got blood on your hands.
You literally have the fact that there's a fascist in chief in office; a sycophant pillaging the federal reserve and keeping our tax dollars for himself; an entire cult of personality that's now in charge of our judicial, executive, and legislative branches, giving the fascists complete control our government withdraw literally no oversight; rights are being taken away from everyone; actual natural-born US citizens are being "deported" (read: kidnapped and trafficked) to foreign countries like Venezuela and El Salvador; alllllll on your hands, and millions of others just like you.
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I see, so its the anti genocide/"basic human rights arent negotiable" side thats at fault for the US falling apart?
I see, so it's the anti-fascist/"basic human rights apply in our country too" side who are at fault for the genocide of Palestinians?
So your "fighting fascists" fight is simply to vote for one of their manufactured war crimes choices both of which demanded you personally be accountable for assisting in murder?
Fascism lite is still fascism. Killing fewer people is still killing, and its wildly illegal and immoral, full stop.
Harris's platform was wildly illegal and immoral. So was trumps. I'm not about to be nagged or threatened into giving my vote to either of those camps.
If that means the country burns itself down then thats fine, we just get a chance to get to the endgame faster where we build it back up to something better. There was nothing down the road of siding with Harris except more zionist puppeteering, and training you all to be nazi prison guards while you deal with the cognitive dissonance of Harris continuing the genocide after you had a hand in getting her in office.
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Biden/Harris killed almost 50 thousand people on their watch. It'll be much more when the bones of dead civilians pinned under rubble are actually counted.
If you were honest you'd say you considered both of the candidate to be equal on the gaza war crimes and you voted to keep the rest of your life going undisturbed
You’re conveniently ignoring the fact that most of that happened in the months immediately following 10/7. Of course Israel was going to be insane at that point.
Bold your text all you want lmao whoever we voted for here wasn’t going to change the US from sending money and arms to Israel in the short term. Harris at least wouldn’t have deported and locked up protestors. We’d at least have a voice - which would’ve left an opportunity for things to get better. Anyone pro-Palestine here is fucked now when it comes to that.
She’s also not buddy-buddy with Netanyahu like the special needs orangutan. You absolutely knew what you were getting with Trump if you voted for him or abstained. Anyone that says differently is ignorant as hell or has been on a deserted island cut off from the world for the past 10 years.
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I wasnt out to teach a lesson, I was out to let this place implode. I dont export our countries war crimes to other places because thats momentarily more convenient for me-- like you'd prefer.
Ohh, so you’re an accelerationist! Now your comments make sense. Well, except the one claiming you’re anti-genocide, but the rest make sense. Kinda.
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if you’re not careful this can easily turn into an accidental alliance with Republicans, and it often does.
OK, it seems to me to be very remotely possible but unlikely.
I'd argue that you're coming from a consequentialism "the ends justifies the means" standpoint wheras I'm coming from deontological ethics.
I think you're arguing that "you can do whatever you want to as long as it leads to some identified desired outcome".If republicans are pushing for fascism, as we all seem to perceive here, my approach is the exact opposite of that. You dont need to take my opinion on it, you can use classic models which are a whole lot better than nothing. If you read up (its 60 seconds, I promise) on consequentialism you will see the Harris campaign outlined pretty spot on, and if you read up on deontology you will see the ani genocide crowd, again spot on. Then take a step back and think which is a better way to fight the vasy and sprawling abuses of fascism.
I dont think winging it ends-justifies-the-means style is going to cut it with these stakes. I'm not saying I'm sure I'm right, but I'm positive that I'm doing my best just like I 'd guess a lot of you think you are. When we think of what a bright future is, its a system of laws that irons out basic unfairness and brutality. We all want this. We disagree on how to get there.
Hot take: deontological ethics is a sad way to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions.
I don't think the ends justify the means, and in equal measure I don't think the means justify the ends.
Then take a step back and think which is a better way to fight the vast and sprawling abuses of fascism.
I'm all for hearing a better way of fighting fascism. Letting a death cult take control of all branches of government was definitely a method. I'm not going to stop listening but like... what the fuck are we doing?
When we think of what a bright future is, its a system of laws that irons out basic unfairness and brutality. We all want this. We disagree on how to get there.
Oh yeah, I want this, and I disagree very heavily with the death cult absolute power method. But I don't have a choice now, it's up to you now to prove that fighting alongside the death cult was the better choice.
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So your "fighting fascists" fight is simply to vote for one of their manufactured war crimes choices both of which demanded you personally be accountable for assisting in murder?
Fascism lite is still fascism. Killing fewer people is still killing, and its wildly illegal and immoral, full stop.
Harris's platform was wildly illegal and immoral. So was trumps. I'm not about to be nagged or threatened into giving my vote to either of those camps.
If that means the country burns itself down then thats fine, we just get a chance to get to the endgame faster where we build it back up to something better. There was nothing down the road of siding with Harris except more zionist puppeteering, and training you all to be nazi prison guards while you deal with the cognitive dissonance of Harris continuing the genocide after you had a hand in getting her in office.
So your anti-genocide "vote" of "not voting" was to be accellerationist and to maximize casualties? My vote means that I'm immoral and your inaction means you're some saint? Right. Gotcha.
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So your "fighting fascists" fight is simply to vote for one of their manufactured war crimes choices both of which demanded you personally be accountable for assisting in murder?
Fascism lite is still fascism. Killing fewer people is still killing, and its wildly illegal and immoral, full stop.
Harris's platform was wildly illegal and immoral. So was trumps. I'm not about to be nagged or threatened into giving my vote to either of those camps.
If that means the country burns itself down then thats fine, we just get a chance to get to the endgame faster where we build it back up to something better. There was nothing down the road of siding with Harris except more zionist puppeteering, and training you all to be nazi prison guards while you deal with the cognitive dissonance of Harris continuing the genocide after you had a hand in getting her in office.
Every month from becoming the nominee until the election Harris campaigned on a cease fire, hostage release, and a two state solution.
These are not "wildly illegal" or genocidal statements. You just refused to see it. Now we have Trump who wants to clear everyone from Gaza for hotels and golf courses. Good jorb!
August:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/23/politics/gaza-israel-harris-convention-speech/index.html -
Every month from becoming the nominee until the election Harris campaigned on a cease fire, hostage release, and a two state solution.
These are not "wildly illegal" or genocidal statements. You just refused to see it. Now we have Trump who wants to clear everyone from Gaza for hotels and golf courses. Good jorb!
August:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/23/politics/gaza-israel-harris-convention-speech/index.htmlActions speak louder than words.
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Ohh, so you’re an accelerationist! Now your comments make sense. Well, except the one claiming you’re anti-genocide, but the rest make sense. Kinda.
If our system requires blood to keep functioning then it needs to be smashed and recreated. You'd have it just continue. Although your desire to limp it along kinda makes a sad sort of sense, if you ignore your own hand in keeping it going.
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Actions speak louder than words.
As a Presidential Candidate, legally, she could take no actions unless she won the election.
She told you, REPEATEDLY, what she would do:
Cease fire, hostage release, two state solution.
You call that "genocide".
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If our system requires blood to keep functioning then it needs to be smashed and recreated. You'd have it just continue. Although your desire to limp it along kinda makes a sad sort of sense, if you ignore your own hand in keeping it going.
“This whole system needs to be smashed and recreated, it’s fine if the country burns itself down”
“Btw you’re the one with blood on your hands, I definitely think basic human rights aren’t negotiable”
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As a Presidential Candidate, legally, she could take no actions unless she won the election.
She told you, REPEATEDLY, what she would do:
Cease fire, hostage release, two state solution.
You call that "genocide".
Jordan,
No one believed her and they had ample reason to doubt her honesty in this regard. She was not some sort of secret human rights advocate. Neither was Joe Biden. -
Jordan,
No one believed her and they had ample reason to doubt her honesty in this regard. She was not some sort of secret human rights advocate. Neither was Joe Biden.Whether you BELIEVE her or not is irrelevant. Her stated policy was NOT in support of genocide, on the record, repeatedly.
You can't blame someone for supporting a genocide when they repeatedly tell you they aren't.
"Well, I don't believe you." Yeah and people don't believe we landed on the moon either. That's a problem with the thought process, not the person making the statement.
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Whether you BELIEVE her or not is irrelevant. Her stated policy was NOT in support of genocide, on the record, repeatedly.
You can't blame someone for supporting a genocide when they repeatedly tell you they aren't.
"Well, I don't believe you." Yeah and people don't believe we landed on the moon either. That's a problem with the thought process, not the person making the statement.
And Joe Bidens stated policy was not in support of genocide either, was it. Because the laws dont care if a candidate supports it or not, its explicitly illegal. Biden got around that by claiming no genocide was occurring.
Harris also said she couldnt think of anything she'd change from Bidens policies.
And then when asked what about the genocide at a rally she said she believes in the protestors right to speak and said the war is real, but didnt say the genocide was. And then when asked again she said "I'm talking" and shut the person down. Sh always responded with a template which starts with, "I beleive Israel has a right to defend itself" and then she never said if a genocide was occurring, linking every abuse to "defense", right out of the zionist marketing playbook.
This is your promise of action, huh. This is your proof she was going to do stuff different?
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And Joe Bidens stated policy was not in support of genocide either, was it. Because the laws dont care if a candidate supports it or not, its explicitly illegal. Biden got around that by claiming no genocide was occurring.
Harris also said she couldnt think of anything she'd change from Bidens policies.
And then when asked what about the genocide at a rally she said she believes in the protestors right to speak and said the war is real, but didnt say the genocide was. And then when asked again she said "I'm talking" and shut the person down. Sh always responded with a template which starts with, "I beleive Israel has a right to defend itself" and then she never said if a genocide was occurring, linking every abuse to "defense", right out of the zionist marketing playbook.
This is your promise of action, huh. This is your proof she was going to do stuff different?
Biden also was calling for a cease fire, and a hostage release, not genocide. Again, that was Trump and his "finish it fast" statements.
March, 2024:
We also know now, her campaign was being directly hamstrung by Biden as well:
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/5191087-harris-trump-biden-harris/
