Wayland has a bright future ahead: The move from Xorg to Wayland had a rough start, but things have improved, and there is an exciting roadmap for the future.
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I'm glad Wayland is maturing and taking over. Even most of the X11 devs hated X11 which tells you something.
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You know Wayland will be ready when these threads don't get 100 comments
I think Wayland just attracts trolls in the same way as systemd does.
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yeah i think it was a couple of gnomes ago, i never noticed the chageover
Same. I booted up NixOS with Gnome around 5 months ago and it took a second for me to realize it was defaulting to Wayland. I was running it on an ancient Asus gaming laptop with nouveau drivers and the experience was overall smooth. Had it multi screened with my TV, too.
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As an average desktop user, I've run into very little pushback on Wayland. Its made huge leaps in a short amount of time.
Yes it's been stable for some time with a couple of caveats - you need a decent graphics driver and not be using apps with edge cases.
Here is a simple example of an edge case and it's not hard to find people blaming Wayland even though with some thought this was a security issue - apps like Zoom, Discord, MS Teams want to do screen sharing which is easy in X11 because it has non existent security - just steal the screen bitmap. That's a problem.
Wayland (the protocol) provides no means for one app to grab the screen, or other apps. This is by design for security. Instead the app must be a good citizen and send a "i want to screen cast" message to the xdg-desktop-portal (a service provider implemented by GNOME, KDE etc.), the desktop asks for user consent and then the app gets a video stream. So it's a lot more secure but it requires the app and the WM do things properly.
Desktops and apps have matured and these issues are thankfully going away. I think the biggest hurdle left is proper graphics drivers, especially the problem of getting NVidia drivers working.
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I finally switched when I moved from Arch to Fedora and it's worked fantastically for me. This is where the Linux desktop is heading now for sure.
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until you start using it and screenrecords dont work, multimonitor setups work once and then fail forever...
systemd,wayland, unity, ubuntuOne and all that stupid shit can right f off.They do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service). The service and the desktop then ask permission from the user if necessary. X11 didn't give a damn about protecting the contents of your screen and any app whether it was beneficial or malicious could do it with impunity. So you should see this formal method of getting a screen cast as a major improvement to your security.
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Yes it's been stable for some time with a couple of caveats - you need a decent graphics driver and not be using apps with edge cases.
Here is a simple example of an edge case and it's not hard to find people blaming Wayland even though with some thought this was a security issue - apps like Zoom, Discord, MS Teams want to do screen sharing which is easy in X11 because it has non existent security - just steal the screen bitmap. That's a problem.
Wayland (the protocol) provides no means for one app to grab the screen, or other apps. This is by design for security. Instead the app must be a good citizen and send a "i want to screen cast" message to the xdg-desktop-portal (a service provider implemented by GNOME, KDE etc.), the desktop asks for user consent and then the app gets a video stream. So it's a lot more secure but it requires the app and the WM do things properly.
Desktops and apps have matured and these issues are thankfully going away. I think the biggest hurdle left is proper graphics drivers, especially the problem of getting NVidia drivers working.
Thankfully I haven't run into any problems with Nvidia drivers. My main rig is running a RTX 3080 with proprietary drivers and my side-project NixOS laptop uses a GTX 970m with nouveau drivers no problem.
It gets me curious about the possibility of specific GPU manufacturers having more of a problem than some. There has to be some discrepancy, because I do see that some users have issues right out the gate, with some being seasoned Linux vets. Whereas I'm mediocre at best and its all been plug and play for me.
I do like the idea of added security, as much as the permission popups annoy the hell out of me. The more Linux becomes popular, the more we'll need extra security down the road. I hope we can simply whitelist packages at some point, though. Then things become less of a Wayland security issue and more of a user choice thing. If a user chooses a bad package to whitelist, then that's on them at that point.
I don't know the details, so it more than likely isn't as easy as that, however.
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Yeah it's at the point where i'm wondering if i still even need xorg. I'm still keeping it around just in case for now, but i could very easily purge it from my system anytime since i'm using nixos and all my xorg related settings are in a specific file. The main pet peeve i have with wayland is gaming related, and should hopefully improve when wine and proton go native wayland. I have a dual monitor setup and games always choose the wrong monitor by default, which means i can only use the resolution and refreshrate of the secondary monitor. I have a keybind to set the primary xwayland monitor with xrandr, which solves the problem, but it is a bit hacky. I also need to toggle vrr on and off with a keybind because it causes flickering on my monitor. It's a bit annoying but atleast it works, on xorg you can't even use vrr with multi monitor to begin with.
i deleted the x session files so they don't show up in my greeter. They got annoying by now, for me. I used to shit on wayland, but it's inching closer and closer to being usable. and i use an nvidia gtx 1080, so that's saying something
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I think Wayland just attracts trolls in the same way as systemd does.
Yeah. Over on
MoronixPhoronix, every article about Rust, systemd, Wayland or –to a lesser extent– GNOME is a troll fest. -
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Is fractional scaling functional?
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Is fractional scaling functional?
It was for a long time.
I use that on Hyprland for a year or 2 now
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I think Wayland just attracts trolls in the same way as systemd does.
SystemD is really bloated tho
I'm not saying we should all be using runit, but with systemD making more and more services only work through their init system just creates more vendor lock in
Like, who needs a cronjob alternative that only works if you use SystemD, limiting your software to people using it and locking out everyone needing a less bloated init system like runit? And who needs a systemD calendar?
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Thank you for the tip. I will definitely look into this.
I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I do want to clarify - the drivers in the repository are still proprietary drivers from Nvidia, just tested and packaged by the distribution maintainers, dkms is just some magic that lets them work with arbitrary kernels with minimal compilation. Unless you're using nouveau, which I don't think is ready for most uses.
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Yeah AFAIK the only two DEs that fully support Wayland are the big two - Gnome and KDE. and a few tiling window managers like Sway and Hyprland.
I look forward to a world where all modern DEs are fully supportive of Wayland like Cinnamon and Budgie and I know people love their xfce.
Yeah, i can't explain why I love xfce so much. It's very much like a windows 9x style desktop with some QOL improvements (press alt to click drag a window is such a great feature)
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They do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service). The service and the desktop then ask permission from the user if necessary. X11 didn't give a damn about protecting the contents of your screen and any app whether it was beneficial or malicious could do it with impunity. So you should see this formal method of getting a screen cast as a major improvement to your security.
maybe?!
but from the votes here you can see that the wayland supporters can be nothing but shit people.
and that is how nixos died. and this is how wayland is already dead.nixos had a toxic insane community of ppl like this: other opionion = downvote.
Or check mozilla...millions of request for improvement, but the idiots focus on telemetry, terrible guis and so on.
Firefox is at 1% marketshare??I have seen it too often by now.
if criticism like that triggers the hardcore fans, you know you do not ever want to be part of that fan base.furthermore, you are a disappointment.
Screen records do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service).
Why do you still exist? I try understanding what the purpose of your reply could be?
Screenrecords do not work. For plenty of people. Google it.
Yet you feel entitled to share you smalldick energy wisdom of "proper way".
That is exactly the vibe of the shit ppl. You do not help Wayland or x11 or anything, you just fap into your own mouth because nobody can ever love you like that.
Go get help. -
I've never had a problem with multi monitor (knock on wood). I had to get around screen recording in the past, but I thought that was ironed out. I'll check that out today.
The only hiccups I've run into so far is that the KDE color picker (the dedicated widget and the screenshot tool) is off by one shade. I grab #222222 and it gets #212121. I got around that by using Flameshot. And that's more on KDE's end afaik.
The other hiccup is constant alerts asking for input permissions when I use something like an autohotkey or autoclicker.
I'm not saying its perfect yet. I'm saying they've busted ass getting it to where it is in such a short amount of time. Its incredibly usable to me for how young Wayland is.
I am saying the devs are the assholes I will spit on at any con.
From google search anyone can see plenty ppl have problems with multimonitor and more.
the community is just toxic like the other fail-communities.
E.g. systemd....equally wrong and crap. And I am sure a majority of former windows users will yeet their brain into the arena to say that it is wrong to critize systemd. if systemd would be good, the adoption rate would not have been overtaken by alpine linux.
and so wayland, electron and all the other stupid ideas are dead on arrival while ppl will still use and defend them like they are paid by redhat. -
I've been using Wayland for years and I have no idea of what you are talking about (regarding the key-up, key-down issue, but I also haven't noticed any crash attributable to Wayland, specifically). Did the same computer you are using work with X11, and stopped working properly after an update? Could it be a hardware or driver issue? Also, has Canonical removed the X session from Ubuntu 24.04, or using Wayland is a company policy?
Using the latest Ubuntu lts is company policy if you want to use Linux. All support for x11 is removed from gnome, you can't even change x11 anymore. I switch workspaces all the time, like web browser in one, dev env and terminal, so constantly switching, 50% of the time it will miss the key up event from your keyboard and it's registering that you are holding the key down.
Gnome randomly crashes, for instance sometimes clicking on a link that someone sent you, just randomly crashes gnomes, happened yesterday. So all the processes you started via gnome is gone, you need to reopen all your tools again, happens at least 6 times a week.
Sometimes gdm doesn't work, so you can't login, you have to open another tty and reset gdm in the other session. It's so bad, never had these issues before in x11, sure there were bugs, but not annoying bugs.
Driver issues or not, it's annoying as fuck. Gnome developers (redhat or whoever sells support for gnome) implementing the display server, gg.
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maybe?!
but from the votes here you can see that the wayland supporters can be nothing but shit people.
and that is how nixos died. and this is how wayland is already dead.nixos had a toxic insane community of ppl like this: other opionion = downvote.
Or check mozilla...millions of request for improvement, but the idiots focus on telemetry, terrible guis and so on.
Firefox is at 1% marketshare??I have seen it too often by now.
if criticism like that triggers the hardcore fans, you know you do not ever want to be part of that fan base.furthermore, you are a disappointment.
Screen records do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service).
Why do you still exist? I try understanding what the purpose of your reply could be?
Screenrecords do not work. For plenty of people. Google it.
Yet you feel entitled to share you smalldick energy wisdom of "proper way".
That is exactly the vibe of the shit ppl. You do not help Wayland or x11 or anything, you just fap into your own mouth because nobody can ever love you like that.
Go get help.Why do you still exist? I try understanding what the purpose of your reply could be? Screenrecords do not work. For plenty of people. Google it. Yet you feel entitled to share you smalldick energy wisdom of “proper way”. That is exactly the vibe of the shit ppl. You do not help Wayland or x11 or anything, you just fap into your own mouth because nobody can ever love you like that. Go get help.
Wow, someone needs to grow up. You laid into Wayland when screen recording doesn't even go through Wayland. There is no need to be sore and immature that you didn't know how it works.
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SystemD is really bloated tho
I'm not saying we should all be using runit, but with systemD making more and more services only work through their init system just creates more vendor lock in
Like, who needs a cronjob alternative that only works if you use SystemD, limiting your software to people using it and locking out everyone needing a less bloated init system like runit? And who needs a systemD calendar?
Depends what you mean by bloat. It has a very large repo, but it compiles into little commands with least privilege execution. A lot of those commands are specifically there so someone doesn't have to pull in other repos with a larger attack surface. e.g. there is a time sync daemon to replace having to pull in ntp which is a lot more complex and fraught and the one thing most desktops need of NTP which is to set the clock.
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What I’ve seen of rustdesk so far is that it’s absolutely not even close to the options available for X. It replaces TeamViewer, not thin clients.
You would need the following to get viability in my eyes:
- Multiple users per server (~50 users)
- Enterprise SSO authentication, working kerberos on desktop
- Good and easily deployable native clients for Windows, Linux and Mac, plus html5 client
- Performant headless software rendered desktops
- GPU acceleration possible but not required
- Clustering, HA control plane, load balancing
- Configuration management available
This isn’t even an edge case. Current and upcoming regulations on information security drags the entire industry this way. Medical, research, defence, banking, basically every regulated landscape gets easier to work in when going down this route. Close to zero worries about endpoint security. Microsoft is working hard on this. It’s easy to do with X. And the best thing on Wayland is RustDesk? As stated earlier, these issues were brought up and discarded as FUD in 2008, and here we are.
Wayland isn’t a better replacement, after 15 years it’s still not a replacement. The Wayland implementations certainly haven’t been rushed, but the architecture was. At this point, fucking Arcan will be viable before Wayland.
Fair enough, I haven't worked in an industry with requirements like that. Can you share an example of software you would use for a setup like that? I'm interested in learning more about it. I wonder how many companies are currently using a solution like that with Linux.
Wayland itself isn't doing anything to prevent those solutions from working, but nobody has chosen to create a solution like that supporting Wayland. If the companies working on and funding Wayland need a solution like that, then they can make or fund it.
Right now, Wayland is good enough to be used on employee workstations for most peoples day to day work, because most people dont work at a company using a solution like you described.
After 15 years, Wayland is lacking some things X11 has, but has also far surpassed it in many ways. Linux is now usable on HiDPI and has proper color management. Companies like Redhat aren't picking features at random, they're prioritizing what their biggest customers need, because thats what makes money. Again, just to reiterate, Wayland supports the usecases you've described, but companies haven't made software for this usecases that works with Wayland.
Wayland may not be a better replacement for you, but is sure is for a ton of users and organizations.
