Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia

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An Australian anti-fascist perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ2KvtlLJyQ

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I'm not false equivocating in order to take the fight off of fascism, both things are true. My point is we don't fight fascism by allowing courts to make performative gestures outlawing performative gestures, its done by organizing against the worst tendencies of capital. By all means ban Nazi salutes it won't affect anyone I associate with, and if it did I would no longer.

Lots of people seem to think having a slight criticism is the same as trying to bad faith rhetorically muddy the waters to give space for fascism. But no, that's what liberalism does, consistently.

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The funny thing is that the Nuremberg Trials were based on retroactive laws. Nothing the Nazis did was technically illegal, so they were prosecuted on the basis that their actions were decided to be crimes after the fact.

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Well both can be true.

I did understand it was a joke but also yes I wish I could but there's laundry to do and a genocide to stop.

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Good. This needs to be worldwide. They need to reeducate the people as to

A: Why the Nazis were bad beyond 'they wanna kill people!' Their utter disgust of science and technology, and how their social policies were actively fucking over their own people in addition to others.
B: Just how incompetent the Nazis were, and were far from a hyperefficient machine.
Just how bad they were at science and despite their demonization, West Germany was never fully denazified and how many former Nazi officers returned to work as politicians and military officers.

There is a plethora of books written before and during WW2 that showcased just how evil the Nazis were and how fucked their society was. They also need a review of Mein Kampf and how Hitler dictated it. Exactly like how Trump dictated the Art of the Deal to a writer and did not write it himself.

My suggestion of one book written during the Nazi Era is Education for Death by Gregor Ziemer. The society it showed was really, REALLY fucked. How anyone could think this was a paradise is beyond me. Most modern fascists, with their donut bodies and chinless faces would be the types considered feeble and probably sterilized as a 'charity'.

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I don't see how mandatory jail time equals "They need to reeducate the people"

People tend to get further radicalized in prison, not less.

If you want to Re-educate people you need to invest in education in the first place.

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facists are deadend for humanity

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Lets discuss freeing violent rapists.

No.

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The problem is application of this kind of law tends to be highly subjective depending on who is in power. This law is ironically ripe for abuse by fascists. This type of free speech should be met with universal scorn, shaming, and ostracism, not jail.

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If you read the article, just a gesture with your arm does not land a person a 12-month prison sentence. It needs to be in public and in combination with: hateful speech, or a hateful act. It seems to be an add-on for specific types of hate crimes.

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Does imagining everyone that I'd locked behind bars as a violent rapist make you feel safe? Aren't you glad you don't live like that, aren't you so much better than all of those people who definitely 100% of them are just always violently raping everybody. Its so simple since everyone in prison definitely deserves to be there, and all of the violent rapists in society are in prison.

Whew you sure convinced me that this issue doesn't need discussed or addressed or thought about at all.

Trying to argue that I'm somehow "pro-rape" is about the most fox-news chud take I've heard all week, which is quite an accomplishment. I'd say you should be proud but I would understand if you felt a little embarrassed

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Does imagining everyone that is locked behind bars as a violent rapist make you feel safe?

No, the vast majority never go to prison. I gave it as an example, i dont think you are pro rape. It's just an example of incarcarating people in order to protect society. I believe that protecting people is the primary goal of incarceration. Better rehabilitation would obviously help this endeavour. I disagree completely with the idea of no incarceration as this would allow violence to flourish with no protection for those under threat.

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As an American, this feels wrong on the surface with our broad first amendment and all.

But when I think about it with my morality-enabled brain? Fuckin’ strewth mates! Get those cunts!

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Sorry I deleted that comment, I didn't like my tone.

Personally I'm not a prison abolitionist. I'd like to see an end to it, ideally, but realistically that would be an amount of practical work beyond just simple reforms, the whole of society would have to be changed. I'm into that, which is why I don't ideally dismiss it.

I treated it better elsewhere, here I just said "you can't snap your fingers" but what I mean is prisons and police they actually are the answer to a lot of problems in society. I agree with you, I would like to see much more reform programs rather than the USA prison system that "needs" prisons, which isn't to say every prison is a social necessity, more like there are political and economic incentive structures that make meaningful progressive change extremely difficult. But my father was a prison guard, and we don't agree much on politics, especially when it comes to carcerial justice, but that man had seen some absolute monsterous behavior from people who are basically unreformable by any modern standard -- and as much as I wish that wasn't the case and I wish they had been given the opportunity for a better life where maybe they wouldn't have lost every bit of their humanity, that doesn't change reality.

However I do think that a society that proliferates carcerial justice the way that we do in the USA, which is all my experience is about, I dont know about Aussie prisons, is not one that is able to restore or even preserve the humanity of all its citizens. A society that makes monsters needs a place to put them; however a place to put monsters creates a demand for monstrousness that must be met. This is whag I would mean to abolish.

Thanks for the response, I did take it personally but thanks for clarifying your position

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Once someone buys into Nazi rhetoric it can take decades to deprogram them. How do you suggest this to be done when it takes far shorter amount of time to spread their rhetoric?

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Their point is that not only does jailing them not deprogram them or prevent them from spreading their rhetoric, it is more likely to have the opposite effect.

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That is a poor point and allowing it to spread is the reality we are actually facing.

Case in point. Germany has been tightly controlling this for several decades. Is their society now overran by Nazi rhetoric? The answer is no.

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I think we would agree that for profit prisons are an absolute atrocity. I harbour a lot of hate for certain types of criminals, but for profit prison is downright evil and corrupt right off the bat. Protecting the public must include rehabilitation or you're just releasing monsters. I would separate violent and non violent, i would also throw every intervention at the problem and see what works, employ the success stories, end poverty fist and foremost. In my opininion, incarceration is necessary mostly because society has failed, in some caes it is however, unavoidable.

I appreciate your perspective and experience on the subject. Thank you.

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interesting, that kind of fine would be nice for us to have in Australia. i agree with you honestly, a fine for something like this would be good as long as it's hefty and proportional to income

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Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia