What counts as an attack for the purposes of the invisibility spell?
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The invisible user poured the oil and lit the fire that caused damage to the enemy. So if the invisible user setup a crossbow with a string on the trigger is it an attack? The action was to pull a string. If you attach a lever to a sword and pull the lever can you run around hitting people with a sword and stay invisible?
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Difficulty balancing encounters
They're being creative because they want to be powerful. They want that "wow that's clever and highly effective, you're so smart here's a one-shot" moment. So, let them. Balance be damned. Let them wipe out entire encounters if they're clever enough. Or, throw in a fluffer enemy or two that can either get "one-shot" at any moment or be a nuisance for the entire encounter
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The difference between those scenarios you've invented and the scenario in the post is that pouring out oil and lighting a fire with a tinderbox already have existing rules, there's no need to try to interpret the mechanics of the situation.
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An attack makes an attack roll.
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Anytime my player use their actions and resources to interact with the world as of it's real I like to support it. I in turn treat the world real back which is what the player wants to do. We like to talk it through to make sure it feels fair to both of us.
For this example where your player is pouring oil and lighting a weapon rack on fire. So I would tell them that the oil will become visible once poured. So I would do a stealth check to get it lite. And either 1d4 rounds until the notice or give the enemy a check each round. Its fun to have these back and forth
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So magic missiles wouldn't break invisibility? Fireball or any other spell that has a save roll and not an attack role?
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But throwing flaming oil is an attack? This is throwing flaming oil but broken down into separate actions.
It seems like separating actions from attack is still a judgement call.
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Yeah one of the most memorable story moments in the campaign I'm in right now came from our party hitting some incredibly lucky rolls and basically one shotting a sentinel enemy that was supposed to make us turn back from the dungeon we were in and gone back later when we were stronger. We then found the boss encounter of that dungeon way underleveled, and had to do some serious strategizing and outside the box thinking to come out on top. It was super fun for us as players, and we felt super proud of ourselves when the DM told us what we had done after the session. It was also super fun for the DM since he had to kind of throw together the rest of the encounter on the fly.
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You are correct that the actions you listed are not attacks, but the Invisibility spell says ...
The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell.
This whole sentence is a way to ckeck your ability to avoid interactions with the world by being invisible while still interacting with it.
Some interactions bend this rule. Not many break it with a fair DM. The closest I have come was an Arcane Trickster character who can cast Mage Hand (which had Invisibility due to a class ability) then Invisibility on targeting self. I could use the Mage Hand for the duration of the spell ... but then I couldn't recast it without dropping Invisibility.
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They're not throwing flaming oil though. They didn't even pour oil onto an enemy and light them on fire. They poured oil onto a weapon rack then lit that on fire. The enemies can simply not interact with the fire if they don't want to. A DM can rule that a series of events together might constitute an attack because it resulted in something similar to an attack (because a DM can rule anything they want), but compounding actions and classifying them based on their result is not covered within RAW.
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Their familiar is an imp, so it gets invisibility as an action, so it doesn't cost them a spell slot or any spell uses. The familiar is basically always invisible and flying. I do need to pay more attention to how it's flying, though - it needs to be shape shifted into a raven, so polymorphing would break concentration, and raven flight isn't silent and cannot hover. Thanks for making me take a deeper look here
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I don't want my encounters to be lethal, I don't like killing off PCs... But I do want the encounters to be a challenge.
I like your idea, but idk if I'm experienced enough to pull it off. Also I'm running a premade campaign right now so a lot of the encounters are pre-defined, at least in nature; I can tip the scales but I don't think I'm comfortable yet with changing how the encounters work.
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Does that mean they took Pact of the Chain? If so, then it's a class feature that's supposed to be powerful. Maybe this signature trick makes their patron impressed, jealous, or bored...
They passed up on Pact of the Blade, so when they do get attacked, they're more vulnerable.
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DM is all powerful. Your job is to manage the fun for everyone, including yourself.
Just remember, people can run away, it's an option players and DMs often forget
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That is correct, and their imp is supposed to be quite powerful. But the resulting gameplay is kinda like stealth archer to the nth degree lol. I'm still trying figure out how to make it fun for both them while also giving the other players a fun experience and provide meaningful interesting challenges to the whole party
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I think the encounters are challenging in a way that required them to create unique solutions. Ultimately, are they having fun? And are you having fun?
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I can tip the scales but I don't think I'm comfortable yet with changing how the encounters work.
This is actually part of why I'm suggesting to think tactics instead of numbers. Wizards of the Coast have already done a lot of math to figure out good numbers for us in those modules, and a lot of the time they're not wrong. It's much easier in my opinion to make an encounter in my opinion by saying "this enemy doesn't have a real health bar. You either have to figure out the puzzle or they just hit you once a turn and then fuck off when everyone else dies"
For example, if we're in a cave and my very clever party runs into a group of goblins, I'm gonna throw a sneaky fella behind 3/4th cover on some ramparts with a slingshot. Oh, and the path to get up to the goblin is in the next room. He's not a real threat, but boy is he annoying. There's probably conveniently a rope that leads up there, a meathead can go climb it or someone clever could set the ramparts on fire. If they just ignore him, he's gonna go take those stairs behind him and annoy them for the next encounter too
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I really like that.
Although this is exactly what the familiar I'm trying to deal with is good at; I'll have to think of something that fits the campaign aesthetics and is also able to counter an invisible flying nuisance lol. Maybe they'll have to encounters more pact of the chain warlocks themselves lol
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5e RAW, they remain invisible. However, using the tinderbox will make noise so enemies will likely notice that.
In the 2024 rules, dealing damage (even not by attacking) causes invisibility to end.
NOTE: both versions of the rules (see the oil item description) state that in this scenario, an enemy only takes damage if it enters or ends its turn in the oiled space. Starting their turn in the burning oil does not cause damage, so just moving out of the space will prevent the damage.
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An invisible flying nuisance you say?
Stories of a dangerous telepath have made it around the kingdom. Some intelligent groups have realized that the telepath actually uses an invisible creature, and have created smoke traps and rope sensors to combat invisible forces, while other adversaries have chosen to enlist the help of more magic-oriented fighters to identify and nullify the threat. Mob-type enemies which tend to be less individually clever but effective in large groups have chosen to train close-combat more often, to diminish the benefits of the "telepath's" long range. While this is partially effective, they often run into issues where the invisible hand can attack from behind.
