Piefed has feeds now!
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Opt-out on the other hand for public feeds specifically is something that I support. But then good luck having that supported on lemmy where almost all communities exist.
Lemmy already has a setting
community.hiddenso that communities dont show up on the All feed. But this is not easy to access at the moment. I can fix that.Yes having that option more easily accessible would be much apprechated.
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Yes the All feed has the same problem, but posts need to be significantly more popular for them to even register in the All feed. Thus most small communities currently fly under the radar of the All feed, and if they do get a popular post it nearly always becomes a moderation nightmare.
Hashtags on Mastodon have a similar problem, having given rise to the usually dreaded "Reply guy" issue.
I think most people on Lemmy haven't really thought this through and what the implications of such a feature are once it becomes widely used.
And no, the one that is doing the opt-in is the person creating the feed without asking the community that is being forcefully opted-in. Giving them the option to veto that is better than having them realize that they have been opted into something they don't agree with by being flooded with trolls and off-topic comments.
I appreciate your words of caution. Remember this feature is very new and will no doubt get a lot more finesse added in future. There's no point building some baroque all singing-all-dancing perfect thing unless we're sure people will use it and by releasing earlier we get valuable feedback which determines whether we continue building that feature at all, etc.
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PieFed (and the Lemmy apps Sync and Connect iirc) can already do this, by blocking all users from the instance. It works much better than the Lemmy equivalent that would be better named as a community muting, since it still allows users to troll you in communities located on other instances.
I don’t want to block the users though, I just don’t want to be subject to their authority. Which means I can’t use their communities. Combining them into one big bag subverts my autonomy to do so.
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I don’t want to block the users though, I just don’t want to be subject to their authority. Which means I can’t use their communities. Combining them into one big bag subverts my autonomy to do so.
??????????????
Just don't use public feeds and have your own private feeds split into topics you're interested in where you don't have communities you dislike included. You have all the autonomy you need. No one tells you to subscribe to that one specific feed that doesn't curate the communities in the way you dislike. Just use it to organise your own subscriptions to have them by topics or catered for different moods of the day.
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Feeds are a combination of communities into one, like multireddit or mastodon tags.
Try it out!
Does posting to a feed post to all the communities in it?
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Does posting to a feed post to all the communities in it?
Feed isn't a place you can post to. It just collects posts from different communities into one feed/stream.
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Yes the All feed has the same problem, but posts need to be significantly more popular for them to even register in the All feed. Thus most small communities currently fly under the radar of the All feed, and if they do get a popular post it nearly always becomes a moderation nightmare.
Hashtags on Mastodon have a similar problem, having given rise to the usually dreaded "Reply guy" issue.
I think most people on Lemmy haven't really thought this through and what the implications of such a feature are once it becomes widely used.
And no, the one that is doing the opt-in is the person creating the feed without asking the community that is being forcefully opted-in. Giving them the option to veto that is better than having them realize that they have been opted into something they don't agree with by being flooded with trolls and off-topic comments.
Im still confused on what your worry is? That people will reply to a post without reading the comments?
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Ah its more complicated than I thought. We also have a similar or same feature on the roadmap, when I get to that it can federate with Piefed.
For the federating its a new kind of AP actor. I'll be putting in a FEP for it in the near future, but its basically a "Group" that only cares about the "Following" collection.
You can see example json for the AP interactions here: https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/src/branch/main/docs/activitypub_examples/feeds
The AP interactions for a Feed are:
- Send a Follow request for a Feed
- Accept a Follow request (this is automatic for public feeds)
- Reject a Follow request (this is automatic for private feeds)
- Announce an Add of a Community to a Feed
- Announce a Remove of a Community from a Feed
- Send a Delete of a Feed to subscribers
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Im still confused on what your worry is? That people will reply to a post without reading the comments?
No, the problem is that people that have no relation to the community start commenting and getting into arguments.
Say for example a /c/anarchism gets added to a "politics" feed. And suddenly you have a bunch of people that have no clue (or even a pretty false idea) commenting on posts in the anarchism community because they think it is just another politics posts. Then others that are actual members of that community start getting into largely off-topic arguments with these commenters and when moderators step in you shortly after get complaints from people about being "censored for their totally valid opinion about politics" and so on.
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Im still confused on what your worry is? That people will reply to a post without reading the comments?
More like reply to posts without regard for its host community. In other words, context collapse where the community is the main context.
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More like reply to posts without regard for its host community. In other words, context collapse where the community is the main context.
Wouldnt each post still indicate what community its on though?
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This doesn’t appeal to me at all. The whole point of Lemmy is that I can avoid certain instances that have oppressive admins.
The whole point of lemmy is decentralization. Not being run off by bad mods. I agree that a lot of big instances have rude admins and mods but this idea is for similar communities with similar modding. If the mods agree then what’s the issue? A lot of big instances communities have the exact same mods anyways.
An example for my use case is I want to support slrpnk and post on their selfhosting com but I don’t want only 1 answer. Federating my post to all three big selfhosting communities would allow more interaction while still being decentralized in the sense of not instance dependent.
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The whole point of lemmy is decentralization. Not being run off by bad mods. I agree that a lot of big instances have rude admins and mods but this idea is for similar communities with similar modding. If the mods agree then what’s the issue? A lot of big instances communities have the exact same mods anyways.
An example for my use case is I want to support slrpnk and post on their selfhosting com but I don’t want only 1 answer. Federating my post to all three big selfhosting communities would allow more interaction while still being decentralized in the sense of not instance dependent.
An example for my use case is I want to support slrpnk and post on their selfhosting com but I don’t want only 1 answer. Federating my post to all three big selfhosting communities would allow more interaction while still being decentralized in the sense of not instance dependent.
Stick to one community. Assess pros and cons of similar communities and choose one. Create meta posts to discuss the choice with other members.
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Feeds are a combination of communities into one, like multireddit or mastodon tags.
Try it out!
This is huge. Thank you to everyone involved.
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Wouldnt each post still indicate what community its on though?
It's more about users not giving a damn which can already be seen with users using 'all' feed downvoting or responding with unfitting comments to things that they should have just ignored but didn't because it showed up to them.
If the user visits feed expecting specific content just like they'd expect from community and treat it as such there's a good chance they'd contribute but not in positive way.
The feature is in a testing phase to find bugs and collect ideas and will be improved with time so such problems would hopefully be minimised. In which direction will the feature progress is something I don't know and from my understanding the devs don't fully know either but they're definitely interested in allowing more control over things like community opting out (or in?) from a specific feeds as a second option besides opting out from the feature completely. In what form the mods will have the tools to control to which feeds their communities belong I don't know but there's a lot of interest in it.
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No, the problem is that people that have no relation to the community start commenting and getting into arguments.
Say for example a /c/anarchism gets added to a "politics" feed. And suddenly you have a bunch of people that have no clue (or even a pretty false idea) commenting on posts in the anarchism community because they think it is just another politics posts. Then others that are actual members of that community start getting into largely off-topic arguments with these commenters and when moderators step in you shortly after get complaints from people about being "censored for their totally valid opinion about politics" and so on.
That's a valid concern. And I think to solve that in a clean way and altogether, they need some options to restrict commenting or voting to subscribers only. Meddling with other features and how communities can be found, so people can keep hiding in Lemmy's noise... is a very indirect approach and doesn't go all the way.
I've seen a bit of that issue in connection with the All-feed. Back when AI was still largely hated on, we regularly had some amount of downvotes creep into the few dedicated AI communities. And while I support people downvoting the flood of AI related stuff in general news and technology communities, I don't see any reason to drive-by downvote an AI post in an AI community. But that has stopped since. And I don't think I've seen anyone come in and pick fights or something. It was just some minor but constant stream of downvotes.
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That's a valid concern. And I think to solve that in a clean way and altogether, they need some options to restrict commenting or voting to subscribers only. Meddling with other features and how communities can be found, so people can keep hiding in Lemmy's noise... is a very indirect approach and doesn't go all the way.
I've seen a bit of that issue in connection with the All-feed. Back when AI was still largely hated on, we regularly had some amount of downvotes creep into the few dedicated AI communities. And while I support people downvoting the flood of AI related stuff in general news and technology communities, I don't see any reason to drive-by downvote an AI post in an AI community. But that has stopped since. And I don't think I've seen anyone come in and pick fights or something. It was just some minor but constant stream of downvotes.
restrict commenting or voting to subscribers only.
Feeds subscribe you to those communities. Maybe if the feature didn't do that it would make more sense but with the current way things work it would require a different solution. Personally I strongly believe in granular control over to which feeds the community gets added with default opt-in where mods can react if something unwanted starts happening.
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restrict commenting or voting to subscribers only.
Feeds subscribe you to those communities. Maybe if the feature didn't do that it would make more sense but with the current way things work it would require a different solution. Personally I strongly believe in granular control over to which feeds the community gets added with default opt-in where mods can react if something unwanted starts happening.
Feeds subscribe you to those communities
I mean if you click on subscribe, to subscribe to all the communities within, that's kind of intended behaviour?! If you just view it, it shouldn't really be an issue. I guess there is some way to figure this out in an acceptable way.
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Feeds subscribe you to those communities
I mean if you click on subscribe, to subscribe to all the communities within, that's kind of intended behaviour?! If you just view it, it shouldn't really be an issue. I guess there is some way to figure this out in an acceptable way.
How'd you follow a feed to regularly visit if not without subscribing to it? The person you responded to complained that communities may get unwanted traffic if they were included in bad feeds. So while you suggested subscribers only comments and it would work for 'all' feed to filter out low effort trolls it wouldn't work with feeds where they are already subscribed to it.
Just like with communities where you don't look them up each time you want to see their content and you subscribe to them to have them easily accessible on you subscribed list or in subscribed feed the same would go for feeds.
I may have missed your subtle suggestion somewhere about changing the behavior of feeds in which case the feature would check out although that would cause some friction still when it comes to ease of interaction.
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How'd you follow a feed to regularly visit if not without subscribing to it? The person you responded to complained that communities may get unwanted traffic if they were included in bad feeds. So while you suggested subscribers only comments and it would work for 'all' feed to filter out low effort trolls it wouldn't work with feeds where they are already subscribed to it.
Just like with communities where you don't look them up each time you want to see their content and you subscribe to them to have them easily accessible on you subscribed list or in subscribed feed the same would go for feeds.
I may have missed your subtle suggestion somewhere about changing the behavior of feeds in which case the feature would check out although that would cause some friction still when it comes to ease of interaction.
Hmmh. And I've missed another point. If you want to do things like add communities later on, and this somehow propagates to existing subscribers, this can't work together with anything but one subscription per whole feed.
I haven't made complete sense of the feature and the consequences yet. I thought I'd just open the feed from the top bar and use it to categorize stuff for myself. But yeah, that's not the main point of it. I'm probably just very tired, I'll stop talking for today because what I say doesn't make a lot of sense anymore. Wish you all a nice day or night or whatever it is.
