Baldur's Gate 3 and Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2 show that the future of RPGs is in games way more ambitious, weird and unexpected than anything Bethesda and Bioware have to offer
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Interestingly, Avowed is completely missing from this discussion.
Avowed is fantastic IMO. It's been handcrafted and feels like a living place as opposed to Starfield which was expansive, siloed and impersonal. As a massive Skyrim and Mass Effect fan it is easily my fave game since BG3, probably even more than it in fact.
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I want to play it but it seems like a $40 game
It's been worth every penny at $70 to me.
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I'm talking about the definition of the words "deep" and "shallow", here.
Giving you choices does not add depth, it substracts it, the developers have to write twice as much content that you won't see, and because they have to account for each choice the story is much stricter in how it can evolve. Choices and replayability are opposites to story depth.
Anyhow, my argument was more about the fact that they don't delve beyond the surface of things much, even companions barely have a single questline each. It's very much a theme park crpg, everything has to be short lived and interesting lest they bore the audience.
See, we've come full circle back to my previous argument that we're simply disagreeing on the definition of the word deep. For me, a deep game is a game where there's many choices. For you, that's a game with a lot of detail to every bit.
Most people, in my experience, agree with my definition.
What makes deus ex deep? The amount of choices you have. Your choices don't change the plot. The only thing you change is how you finish the game. You still end up in the same place.
Think of it this way: there's a slider for choices and one for story detail and length.
Which one is the deeper game, the one with no choices but with a long and detailed story? Like a really long walking simulator, for example.
Or a game with 10 levels that you can approach in 10 different ways each? Sort of like a hitman game or something?
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The joke of these games is that they aren't notably more weird than titles Bethesda and Bioware were famous for turning out. Hard to get more weird than Fallout's more esoteric vaults or Morrowind's bizarre cults and exotic cultures.
BG3/KC:D have been, if anything, a direct successors to the old classics. They're faithfully propagating the ideas these old titles represented in a way the new studios are unable to reproduce.
It's also ironic that BG3 is continuation of Bioware's own franchise.
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I wish there were more new sci-fi RPGs of that quality.
I do hear CP2077 is good now and I keep meaning to play it.
TBH I'll probably end up enjoying Starfield once I get around to trying it as well.
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I wish there were more new sci-fi RPGs of that quality.
I do hear CP2077 is good now and I keep meaning to play it.
TBH I'll probably end up enjoying Starfield once I get around to trying it as well.
CP2077's story is nice but short (for an RPG these days) but the meat is in the world and side missions.
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Interestingly, Avowed is completely missing from this discussion.
Personally I just want another RtwP CRPG.
I loved PoE1, didn't care much about PoE2, and will probably care less about Avowed. There's something magical about a map full of tiles that aren't revealed immediately compared to a world map that you can immediately tell how much has been explored.
Same thing for BG3. I love Larian (been a Kickstarter backer since the original D:OS days, been playing almost every one of their games on release day since Dragon Commander) and BG3's a great RPG, but it doesn't feel like a good BG game. BG2 gave an immediate sense of "I have no idea where to go so I can do whatever I want". BG3 is always nudging you to uncover the map and clear all the quests.
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CP2077's story is nice but short (for an RPG these days) but the meat is in the world and side missions.
Doesn't "nice but short but the meat is in the world and side missions" describe most RPGs nowadays?
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I wish there were more new sci-fi RPGs of that quality.
I do hear CP2077 is good now and I keep meaning to play it.
TBH I'll probably end up enjoying Starfield once I get around to trying it as well.
I've heard people take that approach with Starfield and still be very disappointed. If it's space you want and are ok with creating your own story, Elite Dangerous is getting a pretty big revival
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CP2077's story is nice but short (for an RPG these days) but the meat is in the world and side missions.
As I've grown older and busier, I now prefer shorter games. Even when I intentionally try to play games, I may get 2-3 hours a week most weeks. A 100-hour campaign takes me a year to play through.
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If you're even remotely interested in Warhammer 40k, the Rogue Trader CRPG is excellent
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2186680/Warhammer_40000_Rogue_Trader/
That game was far better then it had any right to be.
Still waiting on an imperial guard focused game though.
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Should I buy Baldurs Gate 3, its extremely expensive still.
Depends. How badly do you want to play the game bioware wishes it could put out?
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Doesn't "nice but short but the meat is in the world and side missions" describe most RPGs nowadays?
I rarely play any new ones to be honest so I'm not sure. CP2077 just feels for me like they didn't stretch out the main story longer than necessary and put a lot of effort into the world and what's in it.
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Depends. How badly do you want to play the game bioware wishes it could put out?
Is it insanely good, like Factorio level polish, or was it just hyped due to recency bias?
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I've heard people take that approach with Starfield and still be very disappointed. If it's space you want and are ok with creating your own story, Elite Dangerous is getting a pretty big revival
Its mostly just that I want a Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim with a sci-fi setting. A solid story, lots of side-quests, and a dynamic world that reacts to the player. I'd probably enjoy a modern metropolitan criminal setting as well for an RPG like GTA's settings but Elder-Scrolls/3D-Fallout gameplay but you never see that at all.
Space is cool though.
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CP2077's story is nice but short (for an RPG these days) but the meat is in the world and side missions.
Is it one of those "play the whole main story and then focus on the side content" situations or "Save the final mission for later because its a proper ending" situations?
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Is it one of those "play the whole main story and then focus on the side content" situations or "Save the final mission for later because its a proper ending" situations?
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I concur; we need more of this new breed of aggressively strange RPG's, like earthbound/mother, planescape:torment, and morrowind.
None of what you listed is "new". Also, Morrowind wasn't actually "strange" in the slightest. Plenty of fantasy RPGs had elements of sci-fi and weird bug shit (see: Wizardry and even Might and Magic) and the "you can screw up the main quest" was similarly common at the time. Planescape I'll give you.
Which is also true here. BG3 is not "strange", It is literally the third Baldurs Gate game and continues most of the same themes and concepts. Yeah, it is a whole lot more gay but even that is not out of the ordinary for CRPGs at this point and had been pushed by companies like Larian, Obsidian, and Owlcat. Hell, the Mass Effects and Dragon Ages deserve a LOT of props for how horny and gay they were and normalizing the idea of picking the right dialogue options for a sexy card cutscene (also see CD Projekt Red).
And KCD2 is one of the most bog standard power fantasy games out there.
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A very fair point, but alas… for better or worse, the bar has indeed been raised, and last month only proved that. February 2025 saw the release of a new RPG from one of the most beloved studios in the genre, Obsidian Entertainment. Avowed is modest by design, but nonetheless it's polished, accessible, and visually impressive, with a rich story from some of the best writers in the business—and the backing of Microsoft, one of the most influential and well-resourced videogame publishers of all time.
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The article we're commenting on, after someone said Avowed was missing from this discussion, even though it wasn't.
