I'm scared to post this anywhere because people will interpret it as me being misogynistic.
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And the entire topic of feminism was brought up to hijack a conversation about men. Moron.
The comment thread I replied to didn’t start with feminism but with fears of being seen as a misogynist when bringing up OP’s points. This naturally led to a conversation about feminism being a movement that aims to abolish this kind of thing.
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I don’t like being associated with anti-racism for a single reason - not everyone agrees that both black and white people suffer, and the blame is often shifted on white people as “carriers of systemic racism”. Besides, it is originally about black people fighting for their rights, not white people, and at any point in time black people can note that it’s for and about black people, effectively shaking off the very white people who promoted it - and to some degree, they will be correct.
We can do better by building a wider anti-racist community. At the end of the day, all we want, as long as we act in good faith, is for everyone to be equal in their rights and opportunities. Black people face racism. White people face racism. Some of it stems from systemic racism, some of it might come from other angles. We should come together not under the banner of Black Lives Matter, not under the banner of White Lives Matter, but from the neutral ground if we ever hope to achieve a society that treats #AllLives as equals.
This is how these comments come across to me.
There’s a power imbalance. Feminism is about bringing women up and redistributing the power.
Men should be able to talk about their issues. And I feel like they usually are. It’s not a problem.
It’s a problem when it’s done to hijack a conversation about women. Or when it’s done without awareness of the history of the power imbalance.
A lot of it isn’t to be taken personally and if it is, I think that says something about you. When I hear blame and anger towards privileged groups that I’m a part of, even if I suffer too, my gut reaction is never “but…”
I understand that these movements are reactions to the power, the history, and the general picture.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]The problem is in your first remake of the quote.
I don't like being associated with anti-racism...
I support antisexism. You just equated feminism and antisexism again, while I do my best to highlight the distinction between them, as the latter is a bigger category than the former.
Nothing wrong with feminism as a fight for women's rights, but looking at mens' problems through the prism of feminism is the same as looking at racism against whites through the prism of BLM, or apples through bananas. That's simply the wrong tool, and I suggest having the swiss knife to have them all. Also, the issue of racism is much more one-sided (at least on the West) compared to sexism, so it's not an overly accurate prism to watch through.
There is feminism - about women. There is masculism (which is currently heavily discredited by patriarchal shitheads, but originally comes from the same place of equality as feminism) - about men. There are also nonbinaries fighting for their place in the world. And there is antisexism combining them all.
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I've had the same experience. Or if you do hear about it, it's reluctant and only in relation to how it affects women.
I'm fine with women having their own advocacy group, I don't think they're equipped to take on men too.
And whenever there is a push for a male advocacy group it gets labeled as some incel shit. Which attracts alt right types and suddenly it's yet another pro republican group.
Men can't have advocacy groups.
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The comment thread I replied to didn’t start with feminism but with fears of being seen as a misogynist when bringing up OP’s points. This naturally led to a conversation about feminism being a movement that aims to abolish this kind of thing.
Feminism is anti-male. That's all it is.
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Either you're a feminist or you're a misogynist, it's simple.wrote on last edited by [email protected]I support feminist ideas, but don't find them fitting to look at mens' problems.
You randomly slap misogynist labels left and right because you got so rigid you cannot even start to comprehend any view more nuanced than "feminism will save us all!"
Nothing wrong with feminism when it comes to women and their issues, by the way.
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The problem is in your first remake of the quote.
I don't like being associated with anti-racism...
I support antisexism. You just equated feminism and antisexism again, while I do my best to highlight the distinction between them, as the latter is a bigger category than the former.
Nothing wrong with feminism as a fight for women's rights, but looking at mens' problems through the prism of feminism is the same as looking at racism against whites through the prism of BLM, or apples through bananas. That's simply the wrong tool, and I suggest having the swiss knife to have them all. Also, the issue of racism is much more one-sided (at least on the West) compared to sexism, so it's not an overly accurate prism to watch through.
There is feminism - about women. There is masculism (which is currently heavily discredited by patriarchal shitheads, but originally comes from the same place of equality as feminism) - about men. There are also nonbinaries fighting for their place in the world. And there is antisexism combining them all.
Source? You’re speaking with a lot of authority here and I’m not sure you fully know what you’re talking about. What you seem to be calling anti-sexism is often called intersectional feminism.
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I'm scared to post this anywhere because people will interpret it as me being misogynistic. And that, IMO, is the biggest problem that men face. We're not allowed by society to be victims.
Stay strong, brother. You are not alone
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It isn't inclusive of everyone because it is about a specific group. I'm getting 'all lives matter' vibes from your comment.
Thanks for clarifying. I'm actually trying to argue the exact opposite of something like "all lives matter".
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Feminism is anti-male. That's all it is.
It’s not. Have you read much on it?
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Do you also complain that gay pride and black history month aren't inclusive of everyone?
Hardly. I added some clarification to my argument.
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I don't like being associated with feminism for a single reason - not everyone agrees that both women and men suffer, and the blame is often shifted on men as "carriers of patriarchy". Besides, it is originally about women fighting for their rights, not men, and at any point in time women can note that it's for the women and about women, effectively shaking off the very men who promoted it - and to some degree, they will be correct.
We can do better by building a wider antisexist community. At the end of the day, all we want, as long as we act in good faith, is for everyone to be equal in their rights and opportunities. Women face sexism. Men face sexism. Some of it stems from patriarchy, some of it might come from other angles. We should come together not under the banner of feminism, not under the banner of masculism, but from the neutral ground if we ever hope to achieve a society that treats men and women as equals.
No true Scotsman, amirite?
Antisexism would be great. I'm not sure that it won't easily be coopted by toxic feminist or incels. But I'd join
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I've very rarely see that from feminist circles. And even then it feels like we can only have the emotions they want us to have and not the ones we do have.
What emotions do you have that you think you can't?
You're allowed to have anger. But if you're like many, you conflate the anger feeling with the shouting/punching/violent actions. Toxic actions are bad, but the feelings are valid and ok. Need to find a proper way to express those emotions.
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Under some older meaning of feminist sure. But 90% of the people who claim to be feminist these days think of it solely as giving women more privilege, and any discussion of men's issues is considered anti-feminist. Whatever meaning of equality that there used to be is all but lost.
Did you know that 74% of statistics are made up on the spot?
How many feminist podcasts do you consume, and when did you notice the change?
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Hardly. I added some clarification to my argument.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]I don't see how your argument is anything other than "Memes about men aren't inclusive. What about everyone else?"
The fact that men are privileged overall doesn't mean they don't have issues. Acknowledging those issues but requiring an additional acknowledgement that other groups exist and have issues is the same thing as 'all lives matter'.
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Source? You’re speaking with a lot of authority here and I’m not sure you fully know what you’re talking about. What you seem to be calling anti-sexism is often called intersectional feminism.
It's...in the name?
But also sure, here's the Cambridge Dictionary:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/anti-sexist -
No true Scotsman, amirite?
Antisexism would be great. I'm not sure that it won't easily be coopted by toxic feminist or incels. But I'd join
It kinda exists, but I feel it is drowned in the era of outrage-based media.
And yes, it is often appropriated by various actors, even though the premise couldn't be clearer.
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The problem is in your first remake of the quote.
I don't like being associated with anti-racism...
I support antisexism. You just equated feminism and antisexism again, while I do my best to highlight the distinction between them, as the latter is a bigger category than the former.
Nothing wrong with feminism as a fight for women's rights, but looking at mens' problems through the prism of feminism is the same as looking at racism against whites through the prism of BLM, or apples through bananas. That's simply the wrong tool, and I suggest having the swiss knife to have them all. Also, the issue of racism is much more one-sided (at least on the West) compared to sexism, so it's not an overly accurate prism to watch through.
There is feminism - about women. There is masculism (which is currently heavily discredited by patriarchal shitheads, but originally comes from the same place of equality as feminism) - about men. There are also nonbinaries fighting for their place in the world. And there is antisexism combining them all.
If someone calls themselves a feminist, but they don't acknowledge the struggles men face under patriarchy, they can hardly be called a feminist.
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Thanks for clarifying. I'm actually trying to argue the exact opposite of something like "all lives matter".
If you're trying to do that, you're doing terribly.
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It's...in the name?
But also sure, here's the Cambridge Dictionary:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/anti-sexistHow much do you know about feminism?
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If someone calls themselves a feminist, but they don't acknowledge the struggles men face under patriarchy, they can hardly be called a feminist.
Sure, but I don't think telling them so is a productive avenue for conversation.
