I'm gonna mute this one
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They (you) get the benefit of not having to look at poor people. Remember, they're complaining about the homeless.
Which is a valid complaint. Homeless people should be given food shelter, medicine, counseling, training and a job. Not a comfy bench.
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Calling a genocide a genocide should not be a partisan issue, and if you think we need to temper our discussion of genocide so that your preferred genocider can win a fucking election then you are a genocide denier.
The way for the dems to differentiate themselves on this issue was to stop doing a genocide. They couldn't do that, and so they enabled the worse option because they were just too horny for killing brown kids.
There we go!
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How do you know they were leftists? I don't know where you are from, but it's been known that bots and foreign powers have been attempting to influence U.S. elections since at least Trumps first term, and let's be honest it's extremely likely that it has been going on for far longer than that.
Biden IS pro genocide, So is Harris, So is Trump. I don't think it's bad to point that out. Using it as a reason to vote for a Fascist instead is loony tunes, and as someone who frequents Leftist spaces I can tell you not a single person on reddit or Lemmy proposed any such nonsense who was taken seriously and wasn't' immediately down-voted into oblivion.
Now you can ask them yourself in the reply to the above comment. Here's a direct link, if it works: https://programming.dev/comment/17635908
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For those not in the know, covenant house is a homeless shelter for kids based in NYC. They house homeless children up to age 21. I emancipated myself when I was 16 and started college. Stupid me didn't realize that the dorms closed during Thanksgiving, Christmas, and other holidays. Going back home for the holidays was out of the question because my mother let my rapist back into the house to live with her, (the reason why I emancipated myself in the first place.) I spent every holiday my freshman year of college at covenant house. I slept on a mat in a room with a bunch of other kids, but it was better than being on the streets and I didn't go hungry. I learned my lesson after that year and rented a room sophomore-senior instead of deciding to live in dorm housing. For anyone that knows any homeless children that need help, they have a crisis line called the 9 line. 1-800-999-9999.
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Now you can ask them yourself in the reply to the above comment. Here's a direct link, if it works: https://programming.dev/comment/17635908
I think you might be reading too much into that statement. They were saying that the Democrats have failed to differentiate themselves on that specific issue, and that's an objective fact.
They also said that Trump was the worst option.
I agree with them that we shouldn't have to keep quiet about what a shit human being politician A is, on the off chance that it might cause a complete idiot to vote for politician B who is just as bad on that issue and worse in just about every other way.
An idiot is going to idiot no matter what you do, and it's not on us to cover up for liberals and their shit candidates.
If the Democrats want us to stop discussing what trash human beings their candidates are, there is a simple solution for that. I'm sure you can figure out what that is if you think about it.
No matter where you are in the world, this is going to affect you as well. You should be just as mad at the Democrats for putting an unelectable piece of shit up against Trump as I am, not making excuses for them and blaming leftists. We didn't have Jack shit to do with it.
The DNC had ONE job, put up a candidate that could beat a fascist dictator. That should have been the easiest job in the world.
They fucked up. And now we are all paying for it. Quit trying to shift the blame where it doesn't belong.
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There we go!
You're angrier at leftists for correctly calling out the dems' genocide than you are at the dems for their genocide.
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Which is a valid complaint. Homeless people should be given food shelter, medicine, counseling, training and a job. Not a comfy bench.
The problem is that my country gets as far as taking away the bench.
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https://apnews.com/article/california-newsom-homeless-61ebe5b2a732323989c8885899f8d929
For anyone saying that the democrats are bad for the homeless, please look at this.
Wow. I remember the way the right wing propaganda machine tried to spin that into a story of total cruelty. At the time, I assumed their version of events was bs, but never really looked into what the dem's were actually doing. Converting old motels into homes for homeless people is an absolute no-brainer.
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You're angrier at leftists for correctly calling out the dems' genocide than you are at the dems for their genocide.
I'm angry at leftists helping elect trump thus creating MORE genocide.
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How is this liberalism?
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Wow. I remember the way the right wing propaganda machine tried to spin that into a story of total cruelty. At the time, I assumed their version of events was bs, but never really looked into what the dem's were actually doing. Converting old motels into homes for homeless people is an absolute no-brainer.
I mean, it's not perfect. A lot of advocacy groups for the homeless are actually critical of the plan, primarily because it doesn't address the underlying issues that cause homelessness and because the efficacy of forced drug and mental health treatment is questionable at best. But it's better than putting arm rests on benches, that's for sure.
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I mean, it's not perfect. A lot of advocacy groups for the homeless are actually critical of the plan, primarily because it doesn't address the underlying issues that cause homelessness and because the efficacy of forced drug and mental health treatment is questionable at best. But it's better than putting arm rests on benches, that's for sure.
Yeah, of course. I used to live down the street from a house for homeless men. I spoke with one of them that would hang out at the gas station every day and, according to him, they had to apply and be accepted on the condition that they would stay out of trouble. Did that stop them from busking until they got their substance abuse fix for the day? Absolutely not. But they were a lot cleaner and much more safe than people without that house. I also regularly saw a few of them cleaning around that house and a few square blocks of it. They seemed to feel the need to upkeep the place and it actually looked much nicer than most of the houses in the area, including mine. But yeah, helping people into homes is really just the starting point to getting a lot of people in that situation on track to a more stable living situation.
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Big tent liberalism is exactly what got you the anti-union, pro-war, pro-fracking, anti-immigrant democratic party of today. Every single time someone argues for speaking to a broader base it's used as an excuse to move further right. And it isn't working. Please, for the love of god, learn from the past three election cycles.
wrote last edited by [email protected]If you have a way to make it work without compromise let me know, I'm all ears. Expert Mode: something that doesn't involve waiting for some charismatic and perfect savior figure to somehow come out of the sky and start successfully advocating for socialism. Nobody is coming.
Because what we're doing now isn't working.
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Who exactly are you going to form groups with? I am a bit lost on where you would even get started on something like that. Most groups I have seen advertised or have any success are extremists I wouldn't want to be a part of. I don't want to go back to being a Trotskyist just to have any meaningful impact. You berate neurodivergent and queer people specifically as not getting off their ass, yet those are the kinds of people in the ranks of these organisations. It's not like your average person is going to go and join the Labour party either.
Not all situations are like America. Here in the UK the backsliding is happening with the traditionally left leaning party who got in power using after massive fuck ups by the conservatives. So the right wing lost hard, but the other party have moved towards them. So you can't even say it's an issue with the alt-right like America. Instead it's actually an issue with the left wing party and left wing moderates. Voting for and allying with them has enabled this behavior. It has enabled them to go after transgender people specifically. Ironically the conservatives might have actually done better in this case, as they haven't expressed issues with queer people in recent times to my knowledge.
We are facing a huge problem that nobody seems to be able to identify, which is not voter turnout. The sad, horrible truth is the last couple election cycles we had record turnout and more young people involved than ever before... AND THEY VOTED FOR TRUMP. It's going to happen all across the world as more and more people have access to their little algorithmic ideology bubbles.
So what's the problem? Atomization of groups. Everyone is isolated and not exposed to each other's perspectives and it's making a vacuum that corporations are easily leveraging to get their right-wing puppets installed so they can make line go up. This atomization is literally turning people delusional, and if we don't push back on it we are going to lose not just the USA but all democracy and organization.
We fight it with activity and community and socialization. If it takes screaming at people to get off their asses, I will do that and I will do it in ways that piss people off if it gets attention.
You berate neurodivergent and queer people specifically
Exactly the kind of bad-faith, seething, atomized perspective I want to fight by forcing people like YOU to listen to people like ME who will say things to piss you off and make you reconsider what someone else is saying. We need to do that not on Lemmy but out in bars, in family gatherings, in social media, in public lectures, in town council meetings and so on. Withdrawing now will kill you all. I am being dead serious. This avoidance of conflict except with people who want the same outcome as you is ruining our entire world.
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If you have a way to make it work without compromise let me know, I'm all ears. Expert Mode: something that doesn't involve waiting for some charismatic and perfect savior figure to somehow come out of the sky and start successfully advocating for socialism. Nobody is coming.
Because what we're doing now isn't working.
wrote last edited by [email protected]That's kind of a broad question, and there's at least two contexts in which I can answer it. One is on a personal level, and one is more on the level of "what should the DNC do if they want to win another election".
Personal answer first. Quite simple:
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join a union
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engage in mutual aid
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read theory (yes really)
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local politics (no matter how local) matter, act like it
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vote for politicians and their policies because you believe in them, not because other guy bad. If your choice is between Hitler and Hitler wearing a funny hat, voting uncommitted is not only your democratic right, but your duty. If you guarantee your vote to a politician regardless of what rhey do or advocate for, the politician has no reason whatsoever to listen to you or cater to your needs. None.
Now if you're asking as a card carrying DNC member with influence:
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Do not capitulate to right wing framing. You will never win at being right wing, the right wing is much better at that than you. Concretely, engage in counter messaging. For example, when it comes to undocumented immigrants, frame them as a boon to society (which they are) and aggressively fight anyone who claims they commit more crimes (they don't, in fact they commit fewer per capita), don't say "I agree mr republican, and my border policies are just as draconian as yours, if not more, just as they should be!" Same with fracking, genocide, crime, taxes, etc. Be an alternative, not a weak derivative.
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Don't fund a genocide. So easy. All you have to do is not send 17.8 billion in military aid to any country committing a genocide. You see a country committing genocide? Do not send 17.8 billion dollars in military aid. If you can't help yourself and have to send the money anyway, don't go bragging about it on your campaign trail, you fucking idiot. More generally, people do not like war, and prefer not to spend billions on some country they've never been to. Trump managed to position himself as the peace candidate TWICE because the dems kept falling over themselves to prove how fucking hawkish they were. This is pure incompetence.
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Start advocating for worker's rights. Stronger unions, higher minimum wage, forced and paid parental leave, paid sick leave, and so on. These are deeply popular positions, as polling shows, also among people who normally vote republican. A one time tax credit is not worker's rights.
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Start advocating for universal health care again. Or at least fucking mention it every now and then. The US is the only nation in the developed world (and beyond?) that doesn't have this, you can gain so much on this.
Follow these simple steps and you'll win your next election!
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That's kind of a broad question, and there's at least two contexts in which I can answer it. One is on a personal level, and one is more on the level of "what should the DNC do if they want to win another election".
Personal answer first. Quite simple:
-
join a union
-
engage in mutual aid
-
read theory (yes really)
-
local politics (no matter how local) matter, act like it
-
vote for politicians and their policies because you believe in them, not because other guy bad. If your choice is between Hitler and Hitler wearing a funny hat, voting uncommitted is not only your democratic right, but your duty. If you guarantee your vote to a politician regardless of what rhey do or advocate for, the politician has no reason whatsoever to listen to you or cater to your needs. None.
Now if you're asking as a card carrying DNC member with influence:
-
Do not capitulate to right wing framing. You will never win at being right wing, the right wing is much better at that than you. Concretely, engage in counter messaging. For example, when it comes to undocumented immigrants, frame them as a boon to society (which they are) and aggressively fight anyone who claims they commit more crimes (they don't, in fact they commit fewer per capita), don't say "I agree mr republican, and my border policies are just as draconian as yours, if not more, just as they should be!" Same with fracking, genocide, crime, taxes, etc. Be an alternative, not a weak derivative.
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Don't fund a genocide. So easy. All you have to do is not send 17.8 billion in military aid to any country committing a genocide. You see a country committing genocide? Do not send 17.8 billion dollars in military aid. If you can't help yourself and have to send the money anyway, don't go bragging about it on your campaign trail, you fucking idiot. More generally, people do not like war, and prefer not to spend billions on some country they've never been to. Trump managed to position himself as the peace candidate TWICE because the dems kept falling over themselves to prove how fucking hawkish they were. This is pure incompetence.
-
Start advocating for worker's rights. Stronger unions, higher minimum wage, forced and paid parental leave, paid sick leave, and so on. These are deeply popular positions, as polling shows, also among people who normally vote republican. A one time tax credit is not worker's rights.
-
Start advocating for universal health care again. Or at least fucking mention it every now and then. The US is the only nation in the developed world (and beyond?) that doesn't have this, you can gain so much on this.
Follow these simple steps and you'll win your next election!
So wait for a charismatic and perfect savior. We see what happens every time someone of this stature reaches the actual federal election stage.
I'm talking about what people can do here and now, which is built coalitions and not have purity tests about who is in it, just focus on single-issues like the right has done successfully over and over and over.
For some reason whenever someone says "compromise" every lefty immediately pictures "submitting on trans rights and abortion" or something.
I'm saying as individuals, you and me, scared lemmy browsers who don't think they have power: build social connections, make more friends, build activism groups, start in local communities and keep it fixated on solving ONE populist problem that we can get a much wider array of people behind, like childcare or school lunches or yes healthcare and unions, social security or other public safety nets and the whole long laundry list of items we want, but instead of overwhelming a population, local or national, with a huge list of inclusivity and ideals, we attack one thing at a time. I have watched the right do this over and over and each time they fucking WIN.
Again, your notions of an ideal candidate you would vote for are spot-on, I would vote for that person in a heartbeat, most would, but that person doesn't exist and they won't exist until they can ride on the momentum of grass-roots movements to tackle populist issues. The democrat party is not our ally here, not without a mandate under it and if we're more clever about building those mandates and then tying them together when it's time, we might have success.
But I'm getting really pessimistic here. Voter turnout is not the problem. Everyone, everywhere, is avoiding mixing. The atomization of our world is the problem. We had the highest voter turnouts and youth involvement in the last several elections than we've ever had, and they voted Trump. That's my whole point, that's the key we have to fight against, how someone like a brazen fascist and idiot can sway so many people, and it starts with re-mixing our values and perspectives and this may take some kind of "compromise" that may make a lot of isolated lefties really uncomfortable, like having conversations with people you don't like, like accepting people who hate you into your protest so you can both tackle a problem you both hate. If we can cross that boundary we can start mixing together again and pulling people out of this programming that corporate media does. Isolationism is killing our whole world and all our hope for the future.
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So wait for a charismatic and perfect savior. We see what happens every time someone of this stature reaches the actual federal election stage.
I'm talking about what people can do here and now, which is built coalitions and not have purity tests about who is in it, just focus on single-issues like the right has done successfully over and over and over.
For some reason whenever someone says "compromise" every lefty immediately pictures "submitting on trans rights and abortion" or something.
I'm saying as individuals, you and me, scared lemmy browsers who don't think they have power: build social connections, make more friends, build activism groups, start in local communities and keep it fixated on solving ONE populist problem that we can get a much wider array of people behind, like childcare or school lunches or yes healthcare and unions, social security or other public safety nets and the whole long laundry list of items we want, but instead of overwhelming a population, local or national, with a huge list of inclusivity and ideals, we attack one thing at a time. I have watched the right do this over and over and each time they fucking WIN.
Again, your notions of an ideal candidate you would vote for are spot-on, I would vote for that person in a heartbeat, most would, but that person doesn't exist and they won't exist until they can ride on the momentum of grass-roots movements to tackle populist issues. The democrat party is not our ally here, not without a mandate under it and if we're more clever about building those mandates and then tying them together when it's time, we might have success.
But I'm getting really pessimistic here. Voter turnout is not the problem. Everyone, everywhere, is avoiding mixing. The atomization of our world is the problem. We had the highest voter turnouts and youth involvement in the last several elections than we've ever had, and they voted Trump. That's my whole point, that's the key we have to fight against, how someone like a brazen fascist and idiot can sway so many people, and it starts with re-mixing our values and perspectives and this may take some kind of "compromise" that may make a lot of isolated lefties really uncomfortable, like having conversations with people you don't like, like accepting people who hate you into your protest so you can both tackle a problem you both hate. If we can cross that boundary we can start mixing together again and pulling people out of this programming that corporate media does. Isolationism is killing our whole world and all our hope for the future.
wrote last edited by [email protected]So wait for a charismatic and perfect savior.
Did you not read what I said? I'm talking about taking up concrete policy positions. Profoundly uncharismatic people like Biden, Harris, Clinton can do that. And yes, it will gain them votes.
Well not Biden obviously because he's been non compos mentis for the past three years, but you get the point.
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How exactly are you going to campaign with no money lol
Spend a moment or two thinking and trying to be smart, okay?
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So wait for a charismatic and perfect savior.
Did you not read what I said? I'm talking about taking up concrete policy positions. Profoundly uncharismatic people like Biden, Harris, Clinton can do that. And yes, it will gain them votes.
Well not Biden obviously because he's been non compos mentis for the past three years, but you get the point.
I tried. If anyone gets what I'm saying, power to them and the kernel of hope rides in their hands. Otherwise I'm done. Peace.
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We are facing a huge problem that nobody seems to be able to identify, which is not voter turnout. The sad, horrible truth is the last couple election cycles we had record turnout and more young people involved than ever before... AND THEY VOTED FOR TRUMP. It's going to happen all across the world as more and more people have access to their little algorithmic ideology bubbles.
So what's the problem? Atomization of groups. Everyone is isolated and not exposed to each other's perspectives and it's making a vacuum that corporations are easily leveraging to get their right-wing puppets installed so they can make line go up. This atomization is literally turning people delusional, and if we don't push back on it we are going to lose not just the USA but all democracy and organization.
We fight it with activity and community and socialization. If it takes screaming at people to get off their asses, I will do that and I will do it in ways that piss people off if it gets attention.
You berate neurodivergent and queer people specifically
Exactly the kind of bad-faith, seething, atomized perspective I want to fight by forcing people like YOU to listen to people like ME who will say things to piss you off and make you reconsider what someone else is saying. We need to do that not on Lemmy but out in bars, in family gatherings, in social media, in public lectures, in town council meetings and so on. Withdrawing now will kill you all. I am being dead serious. This avoidance of conflict except with people who want the same outcome as you is ruining our entire world.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I already talk politics on normie social media, and in bars, and even to colleagues sometimes. I do all these things, for all the good it might do. You don't fully understand who you are talking to, the demographic you are trying to address, anymore than you understand politics outside of America. Queer and Neurodivergent people are already some of the most radicalised people who fight the most. They make up a good chunk of the alt-right, and much of the alt-left too. You have just spent too much time talking to the chronically online individuals or whatever the term is.
As I said here we had a landslide loss for the right wing party. Mainly because the British people won't tolerate the kinds of scandals that the politicians got up to, certainly we wouldn't tolerate Trump here. The outcome though was the left wing party doing the bad stuff instead. It's not about compromise when people's rights are on the line. I am not saying don't vote where you are, and I certainly voted where I am. It's just at this point that strategy isn't working as well as it should. While screaming at people is great, I don't even know what to tell them to do. Whoever I would tell them to vote for either won't get in, will do harmful things, or are far too radical for normal people to go for, or some combo of the above. Not really convinced that screaming works either. Honey catches more flies than vinegar. Especially with someone like you who is screaming at the wrong people in the wrong way for probably the wrong reasons.
