Would wine from back in ancient times and civilizations have been dogshit compared to a basic marketable wine produced by modern viniculture?
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What would have been a liberal estimate of the possible alcohol ABA or %? How much sugar would have been in it/L?
Even wine for Kings?
I imagine because wild yeast strains are far less alcohol tolerant that you'd end up with something more akin to a lambic, especially if they don't filter it.
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I've made wine (and a lot of beer). It's not hard, and people have been doing it for ages, but creating a good, consistent product does rely on chemistry/biology knowledge that they wouldn't have had back then.
I suspect that a lot of the mystique around wine (like the idea that terroir is magic) is just down to the fact that a few hundred years ago, most wine/beer was trash, and the only stuff we'd consider "good" by modern standards is just down to luck that a batch didn't get infected with the wrong yeast/bacteria, or exposed to too much oxygen, or a style that is meant to be drunk young (vinho verde) or oxidized (sherry).
There's probably good reason that much of the wine that was aged/transported long distance a couple hundred years ago was fortified (Madeira, Port, sherry, vermouth, etc.).
Millenia of selective breeding have changed grapes, too. Without knowing for certain, my guess would be that on average, the sugar concentration in the raw grape juice would be roughly the same as now, but relying on wild yeasts or polycultures would not ferment as completely, so the final product would have lower ABV and higher sugar.
In beer, the actual grain and malting technology has greatly changed over time. 150 years ago, German immigrants to America couldn't brew the lighter styles they were used to because American grain was much higher in protein so they had to dilute it with corn/rice. Older grain had a higher propensity for certain defects, too. Basically you had more inconsistency back in the day, and also just some things that were different.
- how was it fortified?
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- how was it fortified?
Star forts
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My neighbour buys grapes, presses them (not trampling), and puts them into demijohns with an airlock. He adds nothing. It ferments using yeast on the grapes over several months. Over the course of a year, he decants from one demijohn to the next, which clarifies yeast, then he bottles and lets it rest some more. It’s in a cool part of the house, about 14-18C.
It’s very tasty wine, but doesn’t have any oak overtones or adjuncts (whether lead or vanillin or whatever else is added), it’s not blended, and it’s moderate abv (around 10%).
This process requires very little in terms of specific materials other than the glass instead of clay. Clay vessels, being porous, would alter the flavour and would harbour yeasties and other microorganisms. But even accounting for that, I don’t think there’s any basis to say ancient wine would be dogshit. It may be different, accounting for taste, but not bad. (Consider the popularity of sour beers (kettle sours or otherwise) and hazy beers. Both of those were considered highly undesirable properties of beer for most of the 20th century - so tastes change. )
The process seems simple but I made my own wild plum wine last year and just leaving it to ferment for 3 days too long almost turned it into vinegar. Also for anyone else wanting to try it, unless you're using something with skin like grapes or plums you need to add your own tannin.
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Star forts
I dont know wat that meenz
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I've made wine (and a lot of beer). It's not hard, and people have been doing it for ages, but creating a good, consistent product does rely on chemistry/biology knowledge that they wouldn't have had back then.
I suspect that a lot of the mystique around wine (like the idea that terroir is magic) is just down to the fact that a few hundred years ago, most wine/beer was trash, and the only stuff we'd consider "good" by modern standards is just down to luck that a batch didn't get infected with the wrong yeast/bacteria, or exposed to too much oxygen, or a style that is meant to be drunk young (vinho verde) or oxidized (sherry).
There's probably good reason that much of the wine that was aged/transported long distance a couple hundred years ago was fortified (Madeira, Port, sherry, vermouth, etc.).
Millenia of selective breeding have changed grapes, too. Without knowing for certain, my guess would be that on average, the sugar concentration in the raw grape juice would be roughly the same as now, but relying on wild yeasts or polycultures would not ferment as completely, so the final product would have lower ABV and higher sugar.
In beer, the actual grain and malting technology has greatly changed over time. 150 years ago, German immigrants to America couldn't brew the lighter styles they were used to because American grain was much higher in protein so they had to dilute it with corn/rice. Older grain had a higher propensity for certain defects, too. Basically you had more inconsistency back in the day, and also just some things that were different.
Go back in time and give an ancient king some boxed wine and be given 500 sheckles, 3 goats, and a concubine.
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The process seems simple but I made my own wild plum wine last year and just leaving it to ferment for 3 days too long almost turned it into vinegar. Also for anyone else wanting to try it, unless you're using something with skin like grapes or plums you need to add your own tannin.
Standard saccharomyces will ferment all the simple sugars, unless interrupted. Some fruit don’t have much in the way of complex sugars (which are responsible for rounding out flavour), and some fruit just don’t have a pleasant flavour without sugar present. It’s also possible that there’s a Brett or other bug in there that ferments the less simple sugars and brings it down stupidly dry. I think plums are on the stupid dry list; I’ve had them in a sour beer and it was… crushingly tart.
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No. Lots of sweet wines are fermented until dry. Then they add potassium metabisulfite to kill the yeast, then "back sweeten" the wine by adding sugar once the yeast is dead.
wrote last edited by [email protected]They didn't do that.
They just used high sugar grapes like gordo blanco, the yeast would go dormant once the alcohol content had got to about 14% and there would still be lots of sugar left.
Now they ferment up to the level of alcohol they want, then refrigerate the must, which makes the yeast go dormant and form hard shells so it can be filtered and centrifuged out.
If you killed the yeast while still active, the cells will rupture and the wine will taste like marmite.
It was common in the new world to create "sweet wines" by adding pure alcohol to the must, which would cause the yeast to become dormant, and then filter it out. This was how "white port" was made.
Since the invention of refrigerated brine jackets, this method has been abandoned. -
Back sweetening doesn't have to be to make it super sweet. Sometimes wine will ferment very dry and is beyond as dry as what you wanted. Other than adding straight sugar, more unfermented juice can also be added to enhance the flavor to either just make it sweeter or to add some of the non-fermented flavor back in that is lost. You can also have wine that produced a higher ABV than was desired, and adding water or juice can dilute it down.
Blending and balancing wine is really the hard part of making wine, especially if you're after a consistent product. Different pieces of fruit have different sugar levels and different yeast does more or less than you intend it to do, so the good wine makers can nudge that end product into what they actually wanted without ruining it.
Champagne is made by using low sugar grapes, fermenting until there is no residual sugar, and then ageing in barrels.
All the sweetness in Champagne is artificial, its made by adding sugar syrup to the bottle before the secondary fermentation used to create the bubbles.
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- how was it fortified?
"Fortified" means that liquor is added which acts as a preservative and it also stops further fermentation so you can have more sugar left in the wine. Oftentimes, herbs are added, too, which also acts a preservative.
In beer, IPAs are similar in that greater amounts of hops were added so it could survive the trip to India with less chance of spoiling.
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They didn't do that.
They just used high sugar grapes like gordo blanco, the yeast would go dormant once the alcohol content had got to about 14% and there would still be lots of sugar left.
Now they ferment up to the level of alcohol they want, then refrigerate the must, which makes the yeast go dormant and form hard shells so it can be filtered and centrifuged out.
If you killed the yeast while still active, the cells will rupture and the wine will taste like marmite.
It was common in the new world to create "sweet wines" by adding pure alcohol to the must, which would cause the yeast to become dormant, and then filter it out. This was how "white port" was made.
Since the invention of refrigerated brine jackets, this method has been abandoned.Interesting to know about the white port process as we've drank a bottle of that recently for the first time.
Your knowledge is beyond mine on the subject. I mostly made various country wines, usually just a half gallon or gallon at a time to experiment with yeasts and to practice balancing.
That's why I think it's probably unfair to think ancient brewers made crap. I mean, like any business, I'm sure some did, but if they were taking food to make it, it had to be worth it for most of history, and it doesn't take a lot of high tech stuff to make a palatable drink.
Low ABV drinks have kept people safe and happy for a long time, and I feel a majority of those people at least tried to be artisans like any other tradesman. Consistency and storage was probably the biggest difference, especially before the hydrometer, but with basic cleanliness and a few brews under your belt, I think someone in the day could have made something decent with nothing else.
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I've had some wild beers, but I don't know if I've had wild wine. Sourdough is a good comparison, because those are the same wild yeasts you'd get for brewing that you'd get if you made your own starter.
If you like wild beer and regular wine, you'll probably enjoy wild wine too! Or at least, I do. I just wish it was more readily available near me, particularly since I am somewhat afraid of brewing it myself
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I think you should try it! Most of what I've done has been more for for r/prisonhooch than r/winemaking and it's all been ok to pretty darn good.
Get a hydrometer and some brewery wash and 2 jugs that fit an airlock and stopper. I've done almost all my fermenting in used juice jugs.
I never found it harder than making bread. There's no kneading, but I usually make a bigger mess transferring liquids, so it is messier. It's fun though, and very little hands on time. Make small batches and there's very little financial risk. Once you get the hang of it, then invest in some carboys and whatever other fancy things you desire.
If your worried about growing something unintended, do a few with purchased yeast so you can learn how the normal year reaction and the byproduct looks and smells at various stages so when you "go wild" you know what's normal. It does sometimes burp some foul gas depending on the strain of yeast. I forget what gas it is, but it's normal, some yeasts just have stinker gas.
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I think you should try it! Most of what I've done has been more for for r/prisonhooch than r/winemaking and it's all been ok to pretty darn good.
Get a hydrometer and some brewery wash and 2 jugs that fit an airlock and stopper. I've done almost all my fermenting in used juice jugs.
I never found it harder than making bread. There's no kneading, but I usually make a bigger mess transferring liquids, so it is messier. It's fun though, and very little hands on time. Make small batches and there's very little financial risk. Once you get the hang of it, then invest in some carboys and whatever other fancy things you desire.
If your worried about growing something unintended, do a few with purchased yeast so you can learn how the normal year reaction and the byproduct looks and smells at various stages so when you "go wild" you know what's normal. It does sometimes burp some foul gas depending on the strain of yeast. I forget what gas it is, but it's normal, some yeasts just have stinker gas.
Oh I've made plenty of beer (and fruit wine, and gin, and currently an attempt at bochet that is awaiting bottling)! It really is just the wild yeast I'm afraid of
I figure I could probably do enough reading and learning to make myself comfortable, but there are enough other things I want to make that I'm not prioritising it just now. I had a crack at a pomegranate and date wine over the winter that I particularly want to improve
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Oh, very cool! I've only done random wines, and I did distilling once. Pomegranate and date sounds really good!
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Oh, very cool! I've only done random wines, and I did distilling once. Pomegranate and date sounds really good!
The theory was to get the proportions right to replicate the pH, sugar content, and tannins close to grape must without having to add much else. Turns out, by chance, that on those three factors, pomegranate and dates are all roughly different from grapes in opposite directions and amounts to each other.
I live in Scotland, which is not exactly prime pomegranate and date territory, so they're both kinda expensive here and not great quality out of season. I did a trial run with pomgranate molasses to just see if I was on to something without spending as much money (or having to crack open and juice like twenty pomegranates)
If I figure out an actual good recipe I'll be sure to stick it on [email protected]
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"Fortified" means that liquor is added which acts as a preservative and it also stops further fermentation so you can have more sugar left in the wine. Oftentimes, herbs are added, too, which also acts a preservative.
In beer, IPAs are similar in that greater amounts of hops were added so it could survive the trip to India with less chance of spoiling.
Do you know when the first liquors were discovered or stumbled on? Did they have it back then in ancient times?
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Fun fact: Jacques Cousteau and his team once discovered a shipwreck with some intact jugs of 2000-year-old Roman wine. For whatever reason, they broke one open and drank some of it. They said it wasn't all that tasty at that point.
Except, after they had their party and were working on recovering the rest of the wreck, they realized that the intact one they'd found right at the beginning was the only one that had been intact. Literally the singular one. They searched extensively to try to find another, and couldn't.
Oops.
I dunno. Someone's gotta experience drinking the wine, might as well be the ones who found it
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I dunno. Someone's gotta experience drinking the wine, might as well be the ones who found it
I mean they could have had it analyzed, probably found out some pretty fascinating things about Roman wine, and then if they wanted to drink it after before it went bad, maybe they could just save some out when they were delivering it for study. Or they could have sold the thing to finance a whole other expedition probably.
I get it. You can't live your life just saving it all in the right file folders. At the same time...
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I dont know wat that meenz
It's a fortification
