Would wine from back in ancient times and civilizations have been dogshit compared to a basic marketable wine produced by modern viniculture?
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Back sweetening doesn't have to be to make it super sweet. Sometimes wine will ferment very dry and is beyond as dry as what you wanted. Other than adding straight sugar, more unfermented juice can also be added to enhance the flavor to either just make it sweeter or to add some of the non-fermented flavor back in that is lost. You can also have wine that produced a higher ABV than was desired, and adding water or juice can dilute it down.
Blending and balancing wine is really the hard part of making wine, especially if you're after a consistent product. Different pieces of fruit have different sugar levels and different yeast does more or less than you intend it to do, so the good wine makers can nudge that end product into what they actually wanted without ruining it.
Champagne is made by using low sugar grapes, fermenting until there is no residual sugar, and then ageing in barrels.
All the sweetness in Champagne is artificial, its made by adding sugar syrup to the bottle before the secondary fermentation used to create the bubbles.
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- how was it fortified?
"Fortified" means that liquor is added which acts as a preservative and it also stops further fermentation so you can have more sugar left in the wine. Oftentimes, herbs are added, too, which also acts a preservative.
In beer, IPAs are similar in that greater amounts of hops were added so it could survive the trip to India with less chance of spoiling.
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They didn't do that.
They just used high sugar grapes like gordo blanco, the yeast would go dormant once the alcohol content had got to about 14% and there would still be lots of sugar left.
Now they ferment up to the level of alcohol they want, then refrigerate the must, which makes the yeast go dormant and form hard shells so it can be filtered and centrifuged out.
If you killed the yeast while still active, the cells will rupture and the wine will taste like marmite.
It was common in the new world to create "sweet wines" by adding pure alcohol to the must, which would cause the yeast to become dormant, and then filter it out. This was how "white port" was made.
Since the invention of refrigerated brine jackets, this method has been abandoned.Interesting to know about the white port process as we've drank a bottle of that recently for the first time.
Your knowledge is beyond mine on the subject. I mostly made various country wines, usually just a half gallon or gallon at a time to experiment with yeasts and to practice balancing.
That's why I think it's probably unfair to think ancient brewers made crap. I mean, like any business, I'm sure some did, but if they were taking food to make it, it had to be worth it for most of history, and it doesn't take a lot of high tech stuff to make a palatable drink.
Low ABV drinks have kept people safe and happy for a long time, and I feel a majority of those people at least tried to be artisans like any other tradesman. Consistency and storage was probably the biggest difference, especially before the hydrometer, but with basic cleanliness and a few brews under your belt, I think someone in the day could have made something decent with nothing else.
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I've had some wild beers, but I don't know if I've had wild wine. Sourdough is a good comparison, because those are the same wild yeasts you'd get for brewing that you'd get if you made your own starter.
If you like wild beer and regular wine, you'll probably enjoy wild wine too! Or at least, I do. I just wish it was more readily available near me, particularly since I am somewhat afraid of brewing it myself
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I think you should try it! Most of what I've done has been more for for r/prisonhooch than r/winemaking and it's all been ok to pretty darn good.
Get a hydrometer and some brewery wash and 2 jugs that fit an airlock and stopper. I've done almost all my fermenting in used juice jugs.
I never found it harder than making bread. There's no kneading, but I usually make a bigger mess transferring liquids, so it is messier. It's fun though, and very little hands on time. Make small batches and there's very little financial risk. Once you get the hang of it, then invest in some carboys and whatever other fancy things you desire.
If your worried about growing something unintended, do a few with purchased yeast so you can learn how the normal year reaction and the byproduct looks and smells at various stages so when you "go wild" you know what's normal. It does sometimes burp some foul gas depending on the strain of yeast. I forget what gas it is, but it's normal, some yeasts just have stinker gas.
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I think you should try it! Most of what I've done has been more for for r/prisonhooch than r/winemaking and it's all been ok to pretty darn good.
Get a hydrometer and some brewery wash and 2 jugs that fit an airlock and stopper. I've done almost all my fermenting in used juice jugs.
I never found it harder than making bread. There's no kneading, but I usually make a bigger mess transferring liquids, so it is messier. It's fun though, and very little hands on time. Make small batches and there's very little financial risk. Once you get the hang of it, then invest in some carboys and whatever other fancy things you desire.
If your worried about growing something unintended, do a few with purchased yeast so you can learn how the normal year reaction and the byproduct looks and smells at various stages so when you "go wild" you know what's normal. It does sometimes burp some foul gas depending on the strain of yeast. I forget what gas it is, but it's normal, some yeasts just have stinker gas.
Oh I've made plenty of beer (and fruit wine, and gin, and currently an attempt at bochet that is awaiting bottling)! It really is just the wild yeast I'm afraid of
I figure I could probably do enough reading and learning to make myself comfortable, but there are enough other things I want to make that I'm not prioritising it just now. I had a crack at a pomegranate and date wine over the winter that I particularly want to improve
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Oh, very cool! I've only done random wines, and I did distilling once. Pomegranate and date sounds really good!
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Oh, very cool! I've only done random wines, and I did distilling once. Pomegranate and date sounds really good!
The theory was to get the proportions right to replicate the pH, sugar content, and tannins close to grape must without having to add much else. Turns out, by chance, that on those three factors, pomegranate and dates are all roughly different from grapes in opposite directions and amounts to each other.
I live in Scotland, which is not exactly prime pomegranate and date territory, so they're both kinda expensive here and not great quality out of season. I did a trial run with pomgranate molasses to just see if I was on to something without spending as much money (or having to crack open and juice like twenty pomegranates)
If I figure out an actual good recipe I'll be sure to stick it on [email protected]
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"Fortified" means that liquor is added which acts as a preservative and it also stops further fermentation so you can have more sugar left in the wine. Oftentimes, herbs are added, too, which also acts a preservative.
In beer, IPAs are similar in that greater amounts of hops were added so it could survive the trip to India with less chance of spoiling.
Do you know when the first liquors were discovered or stumbled on? Did they have it back then in ancient times?
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Fun fact: Jacques Cousteau and his team once discovered a shipwreck with some intact jugs of 2000-year-old Roman wine. For whatever reason, they broke one open and drank some of it. They said it wasn't all that tasty at that point.
Except, after they had their party and were working on recovering the rest of the wreck, they realized that the intact one they'd found right at the beginning was the only one that had been intact. Literally the singular one. They searched extensively to try to find another, and couldn't.
Oops.
I dunno. Someone's gotta experience drinking the wine, might as well be the ones who found it
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I dunno. Someone's gotta experience drinking the wine, might as well be the ones who found it
I mean they could have had it analyzed, probably found out some pretty fascinating things about Roman wine, and then if they wanted to drink it after before it went bad, maybe they could just save some out when they were delivering it for study. Or they could have sold the thing to finance a whole other expedition probably.
I get it. You can't live your life just saving it all in the right file folders. At the same time...
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I dont know wat that meenz
It's a fortification
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Do you know when the first liquors were discovered or stumbled on? Did they have it back then in ancient times?
I think full modern-strength liquor is relatively new-ish (500-1000 years). I'm just thinking back to the meme of the wikipedia article on the "timeline of Irish inventions" that has the invention of whiskey and then a gap of 300 years before they invented anything else.
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Clay vessels, being porous, would alter the flavour and would harbour yeasties and other microorganisms.
There's a winery in Sonoma called the "Jacuzzi Family Vineyards" (yes, that Jacuzzi) that does fermenting in amphora jars for their Clarum. It is just about my favorite wine. Very light and minerally, perfect for a hot day. At $50/btl, its not cheap. But I like to set aside a bottle or two for special events.
If ancient wine is anything like that, they've got nothing to complain about.
Congratulations, you just sold two bottles of wine. Do I need to use a referral code?
Jokes aside this looks amazing. One of the best wines I've ever tasted is called TALEiA, by Castell d'Encus out of Spain. It is exactly as you describe — refreshing, light, with a mineral note because they age it part of the time in these ancient granite basins. It has a trembling newness with a brave young heart underneath, simply magical.
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Congratulations, you just sold two bottles of wine. Do I need to use a referral code?
Jokes aside this looks amazing. One of the best wines I've ever tasted is called TALEiA, by Castell d'Encus out of Spain. It is exactly as you describe — refreshing, light, with a mineral note because they age it part of the time in these ancient granite basins. It has a trembling newness with a brave young heart underneath, simply magical.
Congratulations, you just sold two bottles of wine. Do I need to use a referral code?
Damn. Should have considered negotiating that in advance.
One of the best wines I’ve ever tasted is called TALEiA, by Castell d’Encus out of Spain.
Turnabout is fair play. I suppose I should order a bottle or two myself.
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Go back in time and give an ancient king some boxed wine and be given 500 sheckles, 3 goats, and a concubine.
Or just take a 5kg bag of refined sugar to buy a whole ass estate with slaves
