Why are modern games obsessed with parrying? | Semi-Ramblomatic
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I had to give up on Soulslike games. It's not that I can't do it, it's that every boss makes me feel frustrated for 30 mins to an hour and I'm cursing a blue streak, pissed off when I'm supposed to be having fun. Not worth it to me or my blood pressure.
I've tried a couple soulslikes and I think I could get into them but it seems like they need a decent chunk of time dedicated to them before you can have any fun. I did enjoy a more stripped down version that I found in Titan Souls though-- it's a boss rush game with simple and tight mechanics, so you can jump in and try a boss or two without any other lead up.
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This reads like a crutch though and reflects part of the problem: games are being treated like products and not carefully curated, cohesive experiences, which's why its consistent inclusion everywhere is being criticized.
If everyone is using the same crutch, no one should be surprised if people start complaining they're seeing the same crutch everywhere instead of interesting new ideas.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]A few years ago, I would have fully agreed with you, but having tried my hand at (hobbyist) gamedev broke those rose-tinted glasses for me. It's just extremely hard to curate gameplay mechanics.
The only real way to know whether a mechanic works in your game, whether it's fun, is to implement it. That means you'll be programming for weeks and at the end of it, you might end up deciding that it actually isn't fun, so you get to rip it back out.
This is also a somewhat linear process. If you think of another mechanic at a later point, you're not going to re-evaluate all previous mechanics to see whether a different combination would've been more fun. Instead, you just decide whether this new mechanic adds fun to your mechanic-soup or distracts from it.Point is, even as a hobbyist and idealist, with theoretically infinite time, I quickly learned to swallow my pride and appreciate when something just adds fun, whether it perfectly fits in or not. You're just not going to create the perfect game. And a game that's a sum of inconsistent, fun parts is still more fun than a coherent game that doesn't exist.
Of course, this does not mean, you should include mechanics even though they're overused. That seems to rather be a result from long development cycles, where games decide to include the mechanic when it's not yet overused, e.g. when a popular game featured that mechanic, but once the game comes out, then a whole bunch of other games have come out before, which had also decided to include that same mechanic.
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Its a crutch because its expected to hold the game up, rather than the game supporting its own weight. In your bullet hell example, dodging isn't a crutch, it's the foundational mechanic. A better example would be a slot machine system (something that is near-inherently engaging) being added to a bullet hell game, not because it fits but because its fun independently and helps distract from the fact that they haven't put any effort into the core gameplay. The mechanic isn't a crutch, its inclusion as a tacked-on addition is.
Then it can be said about any mechanic, isn't it? In Soulslike, parry is part of the core mechanics.
When Balatro exploded, a ton of copy cats tried to get in on the action. It happens all the time. Why is parrying any different?
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Didn't Furi do this in 2016? I'd be surprised if it was the first game to tie parrying to health gain either. In the slew of action games that came out in the PS2 era, someone must've done it.
Pretty sure this kind of game mechanic (expose yourself to an enemy attack for a skill check that regains health) can be traced back at least to the Dodgeball DLC for Outside
. Game mechanics are like TV tropes, they echo what came before them, almost without exception -
Then it can be said about any mechanic, isn't it? In Soulslike, parry is part of the core mechanics.
When Balatro exploded, a ton of copy cats tried to get in on the action. It happens all the time. Why is parrying any different?
Using your clones example, the Slay the Spire "clones" that give roguelike deckbuilders a bad name aren't Inscryption or Monster Train or Balatro. Its things like Across the Obelisk and Wildfrost, that are good, but fail to capture what makes others great, and the numerous low-effort copies you've likely never heard of that viewed it as an easy way to make a good game without understanding it. Its not that Roguelike Deckbuilders are bad, obviously, its that lazy, or thoughtless use of the mechanics that is. A game isn't one mechanic, and trying to treat it as such just results in a messy or bad game.
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Using your clones example, the Slay the Spire "clones" that give roguelike deckbuilders a bad name aren't Inscryption or Monster Train or Balatro. Its things like Across the Obelisk and Wildfrost, that are good, but fail to capture what makes others great, and the numerous low-effort copies you've likely never heard of that viewed it as an easy way to make a good game without understanding it. Its not that Roguelike Deckbuilders are bad, obviously, its that lazy, or thoughtless use of the mechanics that is. A game isn't one mechanic, and trying to treat it as such just results in a messy or bad game.
Whoa AtO catching strays? I enjoy it a lot, particularly great that it's multiplayer
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I had to give up on Soulslike games. It's not that I can't do it, it's that every boss makes me feel frustrated for 30 mins to an hour and I'm cursing a blue streak, pissed off when I'm supposed to be having fun. Not worth it to me or my blood pressure.
It's funny, I think soulslike games gave me a lot more patience and endurance, I remember several times fighting a boss for an hour+ over and over until I "get it" then when you finally win... The victory feels sooooo earned.
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I had to give up on Soulslike games. It's not that I can't do it, it's that every boss makes me feel frustrated for 30 mins to an hour and I'm cursing a blue streak, pissed off when I'm supposed to be having fun. Not worth it to me or my blood pressure.
That's a fine take. If you realize you're not having fun, there's no shame in stopping. For me, the dopamine rush of finally killing a boss after several attempts is worth it. Although the number of attempts I'm willing to put in is quite limited (~15), and I have quit several games after hitting a road block.
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I think, part of it is also that it's a rather isolated feature which is fun on its own. You don't need multiple systems working together to make parrying fun. Instead, you just react in the right moment and there's your endorphins. Pretty much the hardest part about implementing it, is to make enemy attacks readable, which you likely need for dodge rolls, too. And then especially for AAA titles, which can't afford to experiment much, such an isolated feature is just a no-brainer to include.
No no no no. No.
You ever played DOOM? And i dont mean the recent incarnations, i mean the original one.
No Parry. Only damage and more damage. And lots of endorfines. BFE.
I hate parrying.
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Whoa AtO catching strays? I enjoy it a lot, particularly great that it's multiplayer
It is a fun game - I bought it and have put a dozen hours or so into it, but it also really doesn't capture the brilliance of Slay the Spire or the other more influential roguelike deckbuilders. In particular, a lot of it feels either clunky or repetitive. It is a good game, but just good rather than amazing.
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This is a timely addition to the recent discussion on this comm
I like how it's used in the new Indiana Jones game. You can approach fights like a hack-n-slash and just wail on people, but occasionally they dodge or parry, and you need to react. But fights aren't about waiting to parry like Jason Bourne, it's just a useful ability.
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No no no no. No.
You ever played DOOM? And i dont mean the recent incarnations, i mean the original one.
No Parry. Only damage and more damage. And lots of endorfines. BFE.
I hate parrying.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]I'm inclined to agree on the latest release, but Doom 2016 is fucking amazing.
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The guy who made the video (Ben Croshaw) is a long time game journalist. I often prefer written things over videos as well but he's not padding his run time with a story about his grandma before he gets to the recipe or anything like that. The above bullet points get to the gist of the content but the rest of the video has examples and deeper explanations
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Semi-Ramblomatic is also his long-form content. Fully Ramblomatic, which used to be Zero Punctuation, is even more concise.
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Semi-Ramblomatic is also his long-form content. Fully Ramblomatic, which used to be Zero Punctuation, is even more concise.
Glad to see second wind is doing so well. I haven't been back to the escapist since the exodus.
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Glad to see second wind is doing so well. I haven't been back to the escapist since the exodus.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]There was bad drama last year that cost them some goodwill and support, but that's over and done. Overall they seem to be doing well.
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My summary, for those who don't want to watch a ten minute video:
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Parrying has gotten very popular.
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It works fairly well.
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Not everyone wants to play a game that relies on responding to cues.
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It doesn't give a feel of being able to control combat.
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Overuse of one mechanic can make it unappealing.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]It doesn't give a feel of being able to control combat.
I feel this way too often. Some combat become a simon says moment. I think replayability is reduced when bosses are designed to strict - and parrying for big damage is a huge influence here.
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I mean, I am all for failure as a whole. Cause it really is true what they say about the growth being in the action of failure. I also like tactics, but I like to have the space to think on the tactics I am enduring. I think it's cool that a game introduced that in a very action-oriented way. There seems to be a lot of creativity in the creatures as well, which I like. I will say as I get older my reaction time has lessened even worse than I'd say it originally was. I never played shooters or anything, although I had friends go ham on them. I think perhaps it might be an incongruity with what I want out of a game with swords x boss battles. The game I think of when I think of big papa boss battles is Shadow of the Colossus. Cause it's pretty much the only one I have ever played like that. I feel the game though, while exciting, is actually pretty slowly paced. Which makes it more accessible to me. Most "sword" games though, I want to play like a dumb-dumb. I wanna hack, slash, and feel all powerful. Smash everything in sight (Dynasty Warriors). I think the two clashing might also be making it difficult for me to pick it up.
But I guess the third thing is that pretty much any time I have grabbed a game that is hyper popular nowadays I don't really seem to like it much. That might be an age thing too, idk. Might be a lot of things, but I generally think I might not be the audience for most AAA games. In fact, I know I am not =P!
That's totally fair! I'm very much of the opinion that while From's soulslikes are great and much less insurmountable (a word I choose carefully — they are difficult, but they can be learned) than their reputation suggests, that still doesn't mean that everyone will actually find them fun. If the combat isn't to your taste then that's an entirely reasonable position. Elden Ring is particularly demanding in terms of the pace of combat compared to the Souls games as well
Shadow of the Colossus is such an incredible game. I think it was the first game I played that showed me that games could do more than just being fun to play. It wasn't the first to attempt to do that, certainly, but it was the first to show that to me and it has stuck in my memory ever since. The soundtrack is phenomenal too. Have you seen that the dev team teased a new game late last year?
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That's totally fair! I'm very much of the opinion that while From's soulslikes are great and much less insurmountable (a word I choose carefully — they are difficult, but they can be learned) than their reputation suggests, that still doesn't mean that everyone will actually find them fun. If the combat isn't to your taste then that's an entirely reasonable position. Elden Ring is particularly demanding in terms of the pace of combat compared to the Souls games as well
Shadow of the Colossus is such an incredible game. I think it was the first game I played that showed me that games could do more than just being fun to play. It wasn't the first to attempt to do that, certainly, but it was the first to show that to me and it has stuck in my memory ever since. The soundtrack is phenomenal too. Have you seen that the dev team teased a new game late last year?
Get out! I was thinking lately that I wish they would (re)release all of their games again so I can finally play the damn game with the bird-dog. A long time ago, a friend showed me a trailer for that game before it came out. I missed it, and maybe with them releasing a new game they might consider putting the old ones up for funding? I don't care how awful the controls or the ai is, their games blow my mind, just like you said =)! Thanks for the heads up! I wonder if it'll end up being an Playstation exclusive, or if they'll open the channels up a bit more?
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When dabbling in fencing and (watching) Historical European Martial Arts, I find parrying pretty satisfying IRL.
Somewhat related, parrying system is almost a requirement in many VR games to prevent melee from devolving into just twisting your wrist fast to dice everything in front of you.
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Get out! I was thinking lately that I wish they would (re)release all of their games again so I can finally play the damn game with the bird-dog. A long time ago, a friend showed me a trailer for that game before it came out. I missed it, and maybe with them releasing a new game they might consider putting the old ones up for funding? I don't care how awful the controls or the ai is, their games blow my mind, just like you said =)! Thanks for the heads up! I wonder if it'll end up being an Playstation exclusive, or if they'll open the channels up a bit more?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJHXe_9uhxw
Here's the teaser, since they reformed the team with a new name so it might not be easy to find. I think this is the only thing they've released about it so far, which doesn't really tell us much other than that they're making something, but honestly I'm just excited to see more from them. It being published by Epic suggests to me that it'll come to PC, which is a relief for me because I don't have a console
