[No PHPun Intended] A Brief History of Web Development
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Where I live, I still see people in a horse-drawn wagon. So, I guess horse-drawn wagons never died? It's only used for tourists and weddings, but that counts, right?
According to Tiobe, PHP was the programming language of the year in 2004. In 2010 it was number 3 in the top 10 programming languages. It's now out of the top 10 entirely. There really isn't a language that has completely disappeared. Mainframes are still programmed using COBOL, Scientists are still using FORTRAN, even Lisp, which has been around since the 1950s, is still going strong.
Maybe Actionscript counts as truly dead, since it was tied to Adobe Flash, and Flash is truly dead?
I have a lot of bad memories of PHP. It was, for a brief time, the main language I used, but it was so ugly and inconsistent. The only thing I loved about it, at the time, was that it wasn't Visual Basic. As bad as PHP was, at least I wasn't making web pages in that pile of hot garbage. But, I never felt joy writing something in PHP. At best it was a slog. At worst it was like pulling teeth.
Just about every other language has given me moments of fun. Original Javascript was a mess, but it already contained scheme-like features. It was sold as being an interpreted version of Java, but it had features that Java wouldn't have for at least a decade. C is a brutal and unforgiving language, but as long as you're not working with strings, it's great to have such low-level control over everything.
Maybe PHP has evolved like other languages, but I still am not interested in trying it out. Everything it was good at can be done better by other languages, and those are languages that give me joy, not pain. I hope it keeps dropping in the rankings so that people aren't exposed to it as one of their first languages.
There are still Amish and Mennonite communities who use horse-drawn wagons and farm implements their whole lives.
Not really meant to be an argument to your point, just interesting to know.
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I took a look and threw up in my mouth a little. That's not how backslashes should be used.
Instead of writing their frontend templates in PHP via Blade, many developers have begun to prefer to write their templates using React or Vue.
So... the only thing that PHP is really good for should be replaced by React or Vue Javascript / Typescript?
To each their own, but for me that's a no.
Tell me you haven't looked at php in 15 years without telling me you haven't looked at php in 15 years
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... or even Symfony.
I'm still confused why laravel is more popular. Symfony is so much nicer to use and maintain
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I mean it does suck, but it sucks less than anything else we have.
Nah, i'd say java has been better than PHP overall
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Everyone in this thread: PHP sucks because it was bad when I last used it 20 years ago.
It's still bad nowadays, and it's the main language used on pretty much every system of several state level secretaries in Brazil. My colleagues work with it daily (I don't program, thankfully) and they're not exactly fond of it. Legacy systems, man
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Java is a better fit. It hasn't fallen in popularity the way PHP has. But, I'm not convinced that serious backend services mostly use Java. It's one of the languages used, sure. But, I don't know if it beats C/C++ or Go. Apache's C. Nginx is C. Kubernetes is Go. Docker is Go.
I think Java has a niche with certain kinds of business logic applications, and those are pretty common. I would guess that in a typical set of interactions with a Google product, or a Meta product, or an AWS product, some parts of the traffic will be handled by services written in Java. But, others will be C/C++ or Go. There will probably also be some parts of the process that are PHP or Ruby or Python, and a lot of Javascript.
I can only speak for what I see in the central European market, big banks like Unicredit (literally primefaces frontend), Erste group is running Java, basically all government services are Java.
Java is by far the dominant language on the job market in terms of number of open positions and salary.
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Nah, i'd say java has been better than PHP overall
That's also 30 years old, old man!
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Yep, PHP is turning 30 this year! Wondering if "PHP is still relevant?" Ever since we have been hearing that PHP is dead. It was “dead” 10 years ago, 5 years ago, and “is dead” today. But somehow - it isn’t. Anyway... happy birthday!
PHP will never die. As long as code is written there will be PHP developers there to claim it's good now.
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Most developers are not going to create the next kubernetes. For me it is usually down to earth integrations. Take this file from s3, send as email and sftp here. Create API to proxy another API. Take messages from Kafka, put on rabbitMQ. Save messages from rabbitMQ to database.
I think Java is very strong with libraries. Especially with Spring Boot and camel. I don't really see it as niche but more of a plain boring peanut butter sandwich. Boring. Unexciting. But works.
I am however trying to convince my boss to allow kotlin. Which has access to all the java libraries
Most developers are also not going to create a "serious backend service". Most are making a random website, or chaining together a few "business logic" items. I think we're just talking about different levels of "serious backend service". Like, if you mean someone making a website for the biggest industrial machinery company in the fortune 500, but it's all B2B stuff and so it handles at most hundreds of QPS, then I think you'll find a lot of Java there. I just think that for the biggest B2C companies in the world that handle hundreds of thousands of QPS, it's not exclusively Java.
I'm not trying to say Java is bad or anything. It's just that it has a few quirks (like garbage collection) that start to matter when you're getting eye-watering levels of traffic. So, for the most serious of the "serious backend services" I think you see Java, but you also sometimes see C/C++ and Go.
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There are still Amish and Mennonite communities who use horse-drawn wagons and farm implements their whole lives.
Not really meant to be an argument to your point, just interesting to know.
It's definitely cool to see when you get into Western Pennsylvania, for example.
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Tell me you haven't looked at php in 15 years without telling me you haven't looked at php in 15 years
I just looked, that was the basis of my comment. It's bad, in particular that "Laravel" thing was awful.
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Everyone in this thread: PHP sucks because it was bad when I last used it 20 years ago.
Dangit. That's me too, I just saw your comment before posting one myself
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IDK, I like Django/DRF
FastAPI ftw, fight me! Lol jk Django is cool and useful and serves a different need, quite well from what I understand.
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Yep, PHP is turning 30 this year! Wondering if "PHP is still relevant?" Ever since we have been hearing that PHP is dead. It was “dead” 10 years ago, 5 years ago, and “is dead” today. But somehow - it isn’t. Anyway... happy birthday!
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Ah yes, the language that picked strlen as the hash function for its hashtables.
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I'm complete opposite. I feel ruby is a far more mature solution compared to what enterprises are using; node, python, (new hot language here).
Most enterprises use Java. Having built many large apps with Ruby and the JVM ecosystem, there’s a reason the JVM is chosen. Same for C#.
Yes, Ruby is way way more mature than node and Python, but most orgs aren’t building backends with those, or if they do they pretty quickly learn why they shouldn’t (been at two orgs that were moving off of node and python).
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Webassembly frameworks.
Blazor! But only because I'm a dotnet guy professionally.
Yew? I'm not good enough with Rust to have tried it.
Wasm cannot modify the DOM iirc
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W-what? Did you used js as backend? How was performance?
Happens a lot - my (quite small) shop was using NestJS for backends and my boss is way more experienced and wise than me. I unintentionally caused us to switch over to Python, which probably sounds as silly as JS to many, but - we deliver dope shit, on time and on budget
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Ah yes, the language that picked strlen as the hash function for its hashtables.
Can you elaborate on this?
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Or TSP (trisodium phosphate) - which you can't even make websites with, but it's great for cleaning oil spots off the driveway.
Well, now, that's useful, but we shouldn't fail to mention good ol HCl, muriatic acid colloquially for this purpose, also great for cleaning oil stains from a driveway!
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Can you elaborate on this?
