What do you think is the biggest issue with Lemmy?
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But it’s this very specific quote that people are misrepresenting. It’s not like he first said “there were fine people on both sides” and then, a few days later, clarified that he wasn’t talking about the Nazis. He said there were fine people on both sides and explicitly added that he was not referring to the Nazis - and it’s that latter part people omit when they spread the “fine people on both sides” quote.
Because he made that clarification after the fact from a scripted statement and an anonymous white house person.
But it’s this very specific quote that people are misrepresenting. It’s not like he first said “there were fine people on both sides” and then, a few days later, clarified that he wasn’t talking about the Nazis.
Please stop acting like you know what happened. His unscripted comments did not include that, full stop.
Again, please stop letting people think for you. Here is the full statement in context. He unequivocally did not denounce the Nazis in his first statement, he gave generic statements about hate having no place in America, which is not the same as what you're falsely saying.
But we're closely following the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville, Virginia. We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides. On many sides. It's been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. This has been going on for a long, long time.
It has no place in America. What is vital now is a swift restoration of law and order and the protection of innocent lives. No citizen should ever fear for their safety and security in our society, and no child should ever be afraid to go outside and play, or be with their parents, and have a good time.
I just got off the phone with the Governor of Virginia, Terry McAuliffe, and we agreed that the hate and the division must stop, and must stop right now. We have to come together as Americans with love for our nation and true affection -- really -- and I say this so strongly -- true affection for each other.
Our country is doing very well in so many ways. We have record -- just absolute record employment. We have unemployment, the lowest it's been in almost 17 years. We have companies pouring into our country. Foxconn and car companies, and so many others, they're coming back to our country. We're renegotiating trade deals to make them great for our country and great for the American worker. We have so many incredible things happening in our country. So when I watch Charlottesville, to me it's very, very sad.
I want to salute the great work of the state and local police in Virginia -- incredible people -- law enforcement, incredible people -- and also the National Guard. They've really been working smart and working hard. They've been doing a terrific job. The federal authorities are also providing tremendous support to the governor. He thanked me for that. And we are here to provide whatever other assistance is needed. We are ready, willing, and able.
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lemmy.ml and its admins being the developers at the same time.
Tankies on their way to hate private ownership and dictatorship of the bourgeoisie so much that they begin to love state ownership and dictatorship of the bureacracy
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We need more users, to do that we need more advertising.
I was waiting to leave reddit for like a year before i found out about lemmy.
There's no way the twitter clone Bluesky should have absorbed the fleeing reddit users instead of this space that functions just like reddit.
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Forums still exist, but I hard agree with you. I was so excited when the lemmy devs were considering hiding votes counts from the frontend by default. Unfortunately (imo) it got shot down by the community pretty quickly.
I think "likes" as a socials concept are part of a dark engagement pattern we've willfully brought over from the mainstream, and we won't be able to be much better than them until we're rid of it.
Yeah, I am on... two forums. I think the issue is that it's not where the people are any more.
I actually think the problem with voting is that the way it's used to promote threads instead of doing it on a time basis. It's part of a way of engaging with a site which punishes long-running conversations.
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Because he made that clarification after the fact from a scripted statement and an anonymous white house person.
But it’s this very specific quote that people are misrepresenting. It’s not like he first said “there were fine people on both sides” and then, a few days later, clarified that he wasn’t talking about the Nazis.
Please stop acting like you know what happened. His unscripted comments did not include that, full stop.
Again, please stop letting people think for you. Here is the full statement in context. He unequivocally did not denounce the Nazis in his first statement, he gave generic statements about hate having no place in America, which is not the same as what you're falsely saying.
But we're closely following the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville, Virginia. We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides. On many sides. It's been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. This has been going on for a long, long time.
It has no place in America. What is vital now is a swift restoration of law and order and the protection of innocent lives. No citizen should ever fear for their safety and security in our society, and no child should ever be afraid to go outside and play, or be with their parents, and have a good time.
I just got off the phone with the Governor of Virginia, Terry McAuliffe, and we agreed that the hate and the division must stop, and must stop right now. We have to come together as Americans with love for our nation and true affection -- really -- and I say this so strongly -- true affection for each other.
Our country is doing very well in so many ways. We have record -- just absolute record employment. We have unemployment, the lowest it's been in almost 17 years. We have companies pouring into our country. Foxconn and car companies, and so many others, they're coming back to our country. We're renegotiating trade deals to make them great for our country and great for the American worker. We have so many incredible things happening in our country. So when I watch Charlottesville, to me it's very, very sad.
I want to salute the great work of the state and local police in Virginia -- incredible people -- law enforcement, incredible people -- and also the National Guard. They've really been working smart and working hard. They've been doing a terrific job. The federal authorities are also providing tremendous support to the governor. He thanked me for that. And we are here to provide whatever other assistance is needed. We are ready, willing, and able.
His unscripted comments did not include that, full stop.
Nor did they include the "fine people on both sides" comment that people are misquoting.
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Not believing lying sociopaths is not bad faith, and I'm having trouble accepting that you'd actually think it is. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on mango mussolini anyway, as this discussion started when I claimed that the right lied way more than the left. The president wasn't responsible for all the lies the GOP has told for the past 50 years, although he sure does have more than his fair share.
You're misquoting him - that's bad faith. Whether or not you believe him is a separate issue. When you criticize someone for what they said, you should address their actual words - not your interpretation of them.
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I don't think that in itself if the problem. anyone can host an instance. The problem is lemmy.ml being the apparent default instance, advertising itself as an instance for privacy and FOSS enthusiasts, and not mentioning seemingly anywhere in the description/rules that only red flavour authoritarian dogma is allowed in political discussion.
"America bad, therefore former 'communist' russia and current 'communist' china good."
Edit: it's not featured as prominently as it used to be on join-lemmy.org so things may be improving. they should still mention in the description that western viewpoints on many issues are not allowed due to "rule 1"
Huh, just checked out the ranking on join-lemmy.org. The default setting is "random", which might be why it's not featured up top.
But what's weird is that lemmy.world isn't in the ranking at all.
If you sort by active, the top two are lemmynsfw.com, followed by lemmy.ml.
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What is genuine political discussion? How do you moderate it? Who is going to come when it's moderated? How do you deal with both legitimate and legitimate complaints about biased moderation?
I just don't think it's a thing on social media. I think it can happen in private conversations, but as soon as it becomes more about winning an argument or posturing for readers, I think any hope of earnest discourse is lost. The more public a conversation, the worse it is. It's like trying to argue with a bully in front of their friends. You might be able to reach the humanity in them, but not in that moment.
It used to be, in the early days of mass social media (and it was widespread on forums)
Moderation isn't easy but it also needn't be fraught - set standards of civility (strict or loose) and basic rules about hate speech, and let people take themselves out of discussions that are within the rules that they nevertheless don't like.
It works a lot better in small communities where you talk to the same people - you can ignore people you don't like and not have the same conversation over and over.
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The fact that you characterise natural ways of engaging in a discussion negatively doesn’t mean it’s not genuine,
It's natural to ask questions. It's natural to point out hypocrisy.
JAQing off and Whataboutism are not those things.
Edit: And frankly, having to explain that in regard to my comment above is precisely what I love not having to constantly do at Lemmy. (Because people both understand the difference, and don't pretend not to.)
it doesn’t mean you’re forced to look at it if it’s available.
The case being made here is that this is a left wing echo chamber, and that I am not interested in genuine discussion if I either don't think it is, or don't care that it is.
I have provided examples of trolling, toxic behavior.
I do not want trolling, toxic behavior here. It is not welcome by me in the community, whether I'm forced to look at it or not.
I'm also not supporting (and nor am I aware of any such thing existing) some kind of a blanket ban on conservatives. They are the folks always telling people to man up, grab themselves by their bootstraps, have the courage of their convictions, etc etc. Guess they need to take some of their own advice if it's a little rough sometimes trying to push authoritarianism and bigotry in some spaces. And if they get banned because they have forgotten how to talk to people who don't already agree with them, I can't find it in me to care.
I will not be shamed into allowing toxicity into my life, on social media or otherwise, in the name of “avoiding an echo chamber.”
JAQing off and Whataboutism are not those things.
Yeah, but if you go in saying that this is the inevitable result of having conservatives discuss politics here, I am suspicious that your threshold for those terms is waaayy lower than mine.
The person I replied to originally wasn't talking about trolling or toxic behaviour, they were talking about conservative viewpoints (likening them to cannibalism, I might add) so, if you want to chip in that trolling isn't welcome then I'll certainly agree with that, but there's a reason I'm not really talking about that.
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Yeah, I am on... two forums. I think the issue is that it's not where the people are any more.
I actually think the problem with voting is that the way it's used to promote threads instead of doing it on a time basis. It's part of a way of engaging with a site which punishes long-running conversations.
What do you mean on a time basis?
Agree that it's hard to find really long running conversions (like what you see on forums), unless you happen to be going back and forth with one other person (notifications pull you back in).
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The issue with echo chambers is that they reinforce people’s existing beliefs instead of challenging them. That often comes with extreme hostility toward anyone who doesn’t share those beliefs. If the left in the US wants to win elections they need people to vote for them who might have voted right in the past. In order to achieve this, minds needs to be changed, and that doesn't happen in echo chambers. I’m sure you can see the value in a left-leaning person going to a place like Truth Social and, in a calm and respectful way, arguing against the claims they disagree with. Well, in my view, Lemmy could use something similar.
I also don’t think right-wingers are the only ones to blame when it comes to the breakdown of polite discussion. If you put someone who feels just as strongly about the left as people here feel about the right, it’s no surprise it turns into a mudslinging match. It takes two to tango.
wrote last edited by [email protected]The issue with echo chambers is that they reinforce people’s existing beliefs instead of challenging them. That often comes with extreme hostility toward anyone who doesn’t share those beliefs.
One more thing -
Why do conversations like this always assume:
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The entirety of my life's experience with conservatives is online or even recent.
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That somehow I don't know what conservatives support. I'm looking at the effects of what they support in the news right now. Just like I did during the satanic panic, just like I did during all their attempts to take away the rights of women, just like I did during my lifetime of watching them try to treat the actual lives of LGBTQ+ like a fucking talking point, just like I've done during my lifetime of watching how their policies impact black people, and (since the current group hasn't yet figured out how to reach back in time and change textbooks) just like I learned during all my various history classes.
So now, when the conservatives in the world are the most openly hateful and bigoted they have ever been in my nearly sixty years, folks are going to scold me for being fucking done with them? Do not want, do not accept.
For sixty fucking years the group of people most obviously and loudly working to make things miserable for the fucking rest of us has been conservatives. WHAT am I going to learn now from them? A deeper understanding for how little they care about anyone not like them? The nuance of their bigotry?
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The lack of content compared to reddit. If you look at [email protected] for example, there is only one post this week, and 4 posts this month. How is it that, with all the web developers and AI vibe coding shit, no one is actually asking questions?
When I was on reddit, I had to hide posts because there were 10 or 20 interesting questions every day.
Mods seem inactive.
If people are interested in that topic (or any other), they can join [email protected]. That community regroups people trying to grow communities, and the issues they face.
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slightly niche
Sports is like the most mainstream of interests, and lemmy still doesn't have a critical mass of sports discussion in general, much less specific sports/leagues, specific teams, specific games/matches, or specific players.
So I keep my reddit sports account.
I also keep an account for my local city subreddit, and one for my career field, because Lemmy doesn't have those either.
I'm the main poster on [email protected]. Most popular post on the planet.
I guess people on Lemmy just don't like sports.
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I think the main problem is that there isn't much besides politics and memes. Most communities that aren't politics seem to devolve into meme communities.
[email protected] has a pinned post for communities that are not politics or memes
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JAQing off and Whataboutism are not those things.
Yeah, but if you go in saying that this is the inevitable result of having conservatives discuss politics here, I am suspicious that your threshold for those terms is waaayy lower than mine.
The person I replied to originally wasn't talking about trolling or toxic behaviour, they were talking about conservative viewpoints (likening them to cannibalism, I might add) so, if you want to chip in that trolling isn't welcome then I'll certainly agree with that, but there's a reason I'm not really talking about that.
These are two of the the primary things gone from my life now that I've cut every conservative I can from it. It's glorious.
So if you want me to support some kind of outreach for conservatives (who apparently can't post anywhere they aren't overtly welcomed and that's a problem the rest of us need to fix) I need some understanding of what you think the upside is.
I haven't seen that.
I've seen scolding people for not wanting to surround themselves with people who have had years and years to demonstrate what they are like and what they support. The only thing new about modern conservatism is how it no longer bothers trying to pretend it's not hateful.
As I have said repeatedly, nothing stops a conservative from coming here and communicating like an adult.
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Duplicate communities posting the same content over and over again.
Communities are tied to an instance. How many communities will die because lemm.ee is shutting down? There is a slightly mad rush to migrate communities already.
Lemmy should have used usent style naming for communities.
Duplicate communities posting the same content over and over again.
Piefed solves that issue: https://piefed.zip/post/100161
All comments from 5 crossposts in a single view
A few options
- https://piefed.social/ - flagship instance
- https://piefed.zip/ - lemmy.zip team
- https://piefed.ca/ - lemmy.ca team
- https://feddit.online/
How many communities will die because lemm.ee is shutting down?
Active communities have moved elsewhere:
Inactive communities weren't active in the first place.
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Issues that would be solved by time/gaining more users
- Not nearly enough people to cover all the niche interest communities that Reddit does. At Reddit you find an expert on almost any topic to help you with your problems and you'll find information on pretty much anything. Lemmy isn't there yet.
- Not nearly enough history. A lot of content is still good and informative after many years. Lemmy doesn't have a library of old-but-still-relevant content to search.
Issues independent of user count
- Search sucks. Reddit's search does too, but reddit is easily searchable via Google. Lemmy isn't.
- Onboarding is difficult, because you have to choose an instance, which is hugely important, but a newcomer has no idea what makes/is a good community to join
Issues that get worse with more users (aka, the potentially deal-breaking issues)
- Lemmy scales terribly. Every larger instance needs to retain a copy of pretty much all other content out there, and each comment/like/delete/update/... needs to be propagated to every other major instance out there. Adding more instances thus increases complexity and cost instead of decreasing it. Running a major lemmy instance is already prohibitively expensive now, with just about 50k monthly active users. If Lemmy was to scale to Reddit numbers (1.1 billion monthly active users, roughly 22 000x the number of users), everything would just break down.
- Moderation work scales just as terribly. Not only does an admin need to make sure the communities on their instance are moderated, but they also need to moderate all other communities on all other instances.
- Related to the last point, there's some legal issues as well if an admin doesn't moderate all other instances. Since content is copied from other instances to your instance, illegal content (e.g. illegal pornography, copyrighted works, ...) are also copied to your own server without your active participation. That makes it legally mandatory to moderate all other communities.
- Legal pitfalls in general. If lemmy becomes sizeable enough, all sorts of laws in regards to social media platforms will apply. That's one thing if the social media platform is run by a huge corporation with a legal department, but it's an entirely different story for a tiny group of non-profit idealists running the social media platform.
Onboarding is difficult, because you have to choose an instance, which is hugely important, but a newcomer has no idea what makes/is a good community to join
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It’s too difficult to block huge swaths of things you’re not interested in. Like sports, or memes, or music. You block one community and 99 more about the same subject appear in your feed.
Adding some sort of Usenet-style organization or sublemmy tagging might help.
Piefed has a built-in keyword filter
A few options
- https://piefed.social/ - flagship instance
- https://piefed.zip/ - lemmy.zip team
- https://piefed.ca/ - lemmy.ca team
- https://feddit.online/
Voyager just started supporting it today: https://lemmy.world/post/31839818
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for me, no option to follow posts / comments, mostly to see new comments / replies and create proper aggregation of responses, any opinion dynamics and so on — this makes everything very temporary / short lived
Piefed allows to follow posts or comments.
https://piefed.zip/ is managed by the lemmy.zip team
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As everyone has pointed out, people and content. Its good in some ways since not every post is drowned out with one thousand replies nobody will ever see, but at the same time, you're not getting much of anything at all sometimes. Not even very niche ones either. Even groups that represent entire states has limited info or replies still. If it can grow to that size and see some more unique and local content more I think even that would be a much better place for it to be.
