Why would'nt this work?
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As an object becomes "closer" to a perfectly rigid object it becomes denser, would such an object eventually collapse onto itself and become a black hole? Or is there another limit to how dense/rigid an object can be?
Seems likely. The most rigid materially known, (or at least theorized) is nuclear pasta.. Nuclear pasta only forms inside neutron stars, stellar objects that are the last stage of matter before matter gives up entirely and collapses into a black hole.
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You're pushing the atoms on your end, which in turn push the next atoms, which push the next ones and so on up to the atoms at the end of the rod which push the hand of your friend on the moon.
As it so happens the way the atoms push each other is electromagnetism, in other words sending photons (same thing light is made of) to each other but these photons are not at visible wavelengths so you don't see them as light.
So pushing the rod is just sending a wave down the rod of atoms pushing each other which the gaps between atoms being bridged using photons, so it will never be faster than the speed at which photons can travel in vacuum (it's actually slower because there's some delay since part of the movement of that wave is actual atoms moving and atoms have mass so they can't travel as fast as the speed of light).
In normal day to day life the rods are far to short for us to notice the delay between the pushing the rod on one end and the rod pushing something on the other end.
Very well put.
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So when you pull on the stick and it doesnt immediately get pulled back on the other side, you are, at that instant, creating more stick?
You're not creating more stick, but you're making the stick longer. The pressure wave in the stick will travel at the speed of sound in the stick which will be faster than sound in air, but orders of magnitude slower than light.
Everything has some elasticity. Rigidity is an illusion . Things that feel rigid to us are rigid in human terms only.
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Photons don't have mass, but they do have momentum.
How does that work?
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You're not creating more stick, but you're making the stick longer. The pressure wave in the stick will travel at the speed of sound in the stick which will be faster than sound in air, but orders of magnitude slower than light.
Everything has some elasticity. Rigidity is an illusion . Things that feel rigid to us are rigid in human terms only.
I get it. Elasticity isn't something you think about in the every day so it all seems rigid.
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So folks have already explained the stick, but you're actually somewhat close to one of the ways you can sort of bend the rules of FTL, at least when it comes to a group of photons.
Instead of a stick, imagine a laser on earth pointed at one edge of the moon. Now suddenly shift the laser to the other side of the moon. What happens to the laser point on the moon's surface?
Well, it still takes light speed (1.3 seconds to the moon) for the movement to take effect, but once it starts, the "point" will "travel" to the other side faster than light. It's not the same photons; and if you could trace the path of the laser, you'd find that the photons space out so much that there are gaps like a dotted line; but if you had a set of sensors on each side of the moon set up to detect the laser, they would find that the time between the first and second sensor detecting the beam would be faster than what light speed would typically allow.
It's not exactly practical, and such an edge case that I doubt we can find a good way to use it, but yeah; FTL through arc lengths can kind of be a thing.
This is hard to truly eli5, so I'll have a go too, in case the others haven't cleared it up for you.
The spot on the moon that moves isn't a real thing, it's the effect of photons hitting the left side, then other photons hitting the right side. The 'reason' or 'cause' for those photons comes from earth very much at light speed. But the left side of the moon can't cause an effect in the right side, that fast. It just experiences a thing right before the right side experiences something similar.
Like if two cars drive from London to Manchester and Liverpool, arriving within seconds of each other. It doesn't mean you can drive from Manchester to Liverpool in seconds.
There's an SMBC I love on this: "The shadows of reality go as fast as they like." https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/superluminal
Bonus: IIRC, any two events that are too close in time for light to travel from one to the other, can be viewed from a different "inertial reference frame" (someone else moving fast and analysing things with the same physics) as being the other way round. I.e. the right observer could see the right hand side of the moon get lit up before the left hand side. But the chap on earth wiggling the laser pointer is still wiggling it slower than the speed of light, so this observer would still see the laser pointer move from left to right. How does that work?
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If your stick is unbreakable and unavoidable you have already broken laws of physics anyway
You have it backwards: if your stick is unavoidable, NOT HAVING IT is the impossible thing.
Autocorrected from unfoldable. This is what I get for occasionally browsing on a shitty Amazon tablet. At least it was cheap to the point of being almost free.
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It can look dumb, but I always had this question as a kid, what physical principles would prevent this?
Even if the stick were made of the hardest known material, the information would take about 7 hours to travel from Earth to the Moon, according to the equation relating Young's modulus and the material's density.
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Even if the stick were made of the hardest known material, the information would take about 7 hours to travel from Earth to the Moon, according to the equation relating Young's modulus and the material's density.
Also, even if you could somehow pull the stick, Newton’s Second Law (F = ma) tells us that the force required to move it depends on its mass and desired acceleration. If the stick were made of steel with a 1 cm radius, it would have a mass of approximately 754x10^6kg due to its enormous length. Now, if you tried to give it just a tiny acceleration of 0.01 m/s² (barely noticeable movement), the required force would be:
F = (754×10^6) × (0.01) = 7.54×10^6 N
That’s 7.54 MN, equivalent to the thrust of a Saturn V rocket, just to make it move at all! And that’s not even considering internal stresses, gravity differences, or the fact that the force wouldn’t propagate instantly through the stick.
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You're pushing the atoms on your end, which in turn push the next atoms, which push the next ones and so on up to the atoms at the end of the rod which push the hand of your friend on the moon.
As it so happens the way the atoms push each other is electromagnetism, in other words sending photons (same thing light is made of) to each other but these photons are not at visible wavelengths so you don't see them as light.
So pushing the rod is just sending a wave down the rod of atoms pushing each other which the gaps between atoms being bridged using photons, so it will never be faster than the speed at which photons can travel in vacuum (it's actually slower because there's some delay since part of the movement of that wave is actual atoms moving and atoms have mass so they can't travel as fast as the speed of light).
In normal day to day life the rods are far to short for us to notice the delay between the pushing the rod on one end and the rod pushing something on the other end.
As it so happens the way the atoms push each other is electromagnetism, in other words sending photons (same thing light is made of) to each other but these photons are not at visible wavelengths so you don't see them as light.
Wat? I strongly believe you are not correct. Which is to say, I think you are talking out of your arse entirely. If you push on a thing you peturb the electron structure of the material. These peturbations propagate as vibratory modes modeled as phonons.
While technically some of this energy is emitted as thermal radiation that is not primarily where it goes.
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I don't get it. Care to explain?
There are multiple forces at work in a rocket nozzle:
- The exhaust is pushed outward, giving the rocket thrust
- The exhaust hits the wall of the nozzle as it gets thinner, braking the rocket
These two effectively cancel out, which is why the actual effect of making the nozzle thinner/converge is that it increases the back pressure within the engine (constricted space, smaller hole), essentially (idk how) increasing the efficiency of the fuel burning.
However, when the nozzle gets too thin, the exhaust becomes faster than its speed of sound. Since the pressure travels at the speed of sound, it can now not actually get back into the engine anymore. So that's the limit of how thin you can make the nozzle. The pressure has to get back into the engine to have its effect, so you can't make the exhaust travel faster than its speed of sound.
If any of this sounds wrong to anyone, let me know, I'm not an expert in this.
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It can look dumb, but I always had this question as a kid, what physical principles would prevent this?
Nah, I prefer using quantum spookiness for that. Send a steady stream of entangled particles to the other person on the moon first. Any time you do something to the particles on Earth, the ones on the Moon are affected also. The catch is that this disentangles them, so you have only a few limited uses. This is why you want a constant stream of them being entangled.
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As it so happens the way the atoms push each other is electromagnetism, in other words sending photons (same thing light is made of) to each other but these photons are not at visible wavelengths so you don't see them as light.
Wat? I strongly believe you are not correct. Which is to say, I think you are talking out of your arse entirely. If you push on a thing you peturb the electron structure of the material. These peturbations propagate as vibratory modes modeled as phonons.
While technically some of this energy is emitted as thermal radiation that is not primarily where it goes.
And how do you think the information that an electrically charged particle is moving reaches other electrically charged particles...
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And how do you think the information that an electrically charged particle is moving reaches other electrically charged particles...
My mistake, that's why sound travels at the speed of light.
It's just not useful to talk about this at the level of the standard model. We are interested in the bulk behaviour of condensed matter, the fact of the matter is that you will not be able to tell that the other end of the stick has been touched until the pressure wave reaches the end. It doesn't matter if individual force carriers are moving at the speed of light because they are not moving in a single straight line. You are interest in the net velocity.
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I get it. Elasticity isn't something you think about in the every day so it all seems rigid.
Exactly. At the atomic level solid matter acts a lot like jello. It also helps explain why things tend to break if you push or pull on them at rates that exceed the speed of sound in that material.
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Nah, I prefer using quantum spookiness for that. Send a steady stream of entangled particles to the other person on the moon first. Any time you do something to the particles on Earth, the ones on the Moon are affected also. The catch is that this disentangles them, so you have only a few limited uses. This is why you want a constant stream of them being entangled.
This wouldn't work, entangled particles don't work like that. They would be disentangled the moment you do anything to either particle of the entangled pair. The only time any information can be encoded onto entangled particles is when they're created.
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My mistake, that's why sound travels at the speed of light.
It's just not useful to talk about this at the level of the standard model. We are interested in the bulk behaviour of condensed matter, the fact of the matter is that you will not be able to tell that the other end of the stick has been touched until the pressure wave reaches the end. It doesn't matter if individual force carriers are moving at the speed of light because they are not moving in a single straight line. You are interest in the net velocity.
I very explicitly said the whole thing is slower than the speed of light (much slower even) and even pointed out why: at the most basic of levels, the way charged particles push each other without contact is the electromagnetic force, meaning photons, but the actual particles still have to move and unlike photons they do have mass so the result is way slower than the speed of light.
To disprove the idea that a push on a solid object can travel faster than the speed of light (which is what the OP put forward), pointing out that at its most basic level the whole thing relies on actually photons which traveling at the speed of light, will do it.
Going down into the complexity of the actual process, whilst interesting, isn't going to answer the OPs question in an accessible and reasonably short manner using language that most people can understand.
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This wouldn't work, entangled particles don't work like that. They would be disentangled the moment you do anything to either particle of the entangled pair. The only time any information can be encoded onto entangled particles is when they're created.
The only time any information can be encoded onto entangled particles is when they’re created.
If that were the case, then we aren't really doing FTL communication, unless we manage to entangle them at a distance. No?
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I very explicitly said the whole thing is slower than the speed of light (much slower even) and even pointed out why: at the most basic of levels, the way charged particles push each other without contact is the electromagnetic force, meaning photons, but the actual particles still have to move and unlike photons they do have mass so the result is way slower than the speed of light.
To disprove the idea that a push on a solid object can travel faster than the speed of light (which is what the OP put forward), pointing out that at its most basic level the whole thing relies on actually photons which traveling at the speed of light, will do it.
Going down into the complexity of the actual process, whilst interesting, isn't going to answer the OPs question in an accessible and reasonably short manner using language that most people can understand.
- Aceticon BcS Applied Bullshit
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There's a thought experiment about this in most intro classes on relativity, talking about "length compression". To a stationary observer a fast-moving object appears shorter in its direction of travel. For example, at 87% of the speed of light, length compression is about 50%. So if you are carrying a pole 20 meters long and you run by someone at that speed, to them the pole will only look 10 meters long.
In the thought experiment you run with this pole into a barn that's only 10 meters long. What happens?
The observer, seeing you bringing a 10-meter pole into a 10-meter barn, shuts the door behind you, closing it exactly at the point where you're entirely in the barn. What happens when you stop, and how does a 20-meter pole fit in a 10-meter barn in the first place?
First, when the pole gets in the barn and the door closes, the pole is no longer moving, so now to the observer it looks 20 meters long. As its speed drops to zero the pole appears to get longer, becoming 20 meters again. It either punches holes in the barn and sticks out, or it shatters if the barn is stronger.
Looking at the situation from the runner's point of view, since motion is relative you could say you're stationary and the barn is moving toward you at 87% of the speed of light. So to you the 10-meter barn only looks 5 meters long. So how does a 20-meter pole fit in?
The answer to both questions is compression - or saying it another way, information doesn't travel instantly. When the front end of the pole hits the inside of the barn and stops, it takes some time for that information to travel through the pole to the other end. Meanwhile, the rest of the pole keeps moving. By the time the back end knows it's supposed to stop, from the runner's point of view the 20-ft pole has been compressed down to 5 meters. From the runner's point of view the barn then stops moving, so it's length returns to 10 meters, but since the pole still won't fit it either punches holes in the barn or shatters.
This is a nice example that also makes me think more questions.
- Will the hole punching be forward or backward?
- Assuming infinite deceleration, for an observer on the other end of the barn, will the barn be punched through, before or after the pole-pusher has stopped?
- For the pole-pusher, will the barn be punched through, before or after it has stopped?
Gets more interesting
